if you are hitler

Yes, Za, but could Franco refuse his help once the first trains would cross the border of what he required? Even could make this really "mean" and just send the trains coming from the USSR straight to Spain....Stalin helping Franco without Josif knowing it (??!)..

 

When Hitler thought co-operation of Spain was assured, he did indeed sent Canaris to obtain final formal consent from Franco, as Canaris was known to be a good friend of Franco’s. Canaris returned with an indifferent answer, leaning towards the negative.

In his work on Hitler, John Toland sites a post war meeting in Franco’s presence when the Marquis de Valdeglesias asked Gen. Vigon (a close friend of Canaris), if it was true the Admiral worked against Spanish interests? At this point Franco lounged forward and declared that Canaris was; ”an excellent friend of Spain”, thus confirming suspicions that while Canaris delivered Hitler’s rhetoric as ordered, he went on to council Franco to the contrary.

Toland also puts forward an interesting observation. He is of the opinion that much of the Arab world would have taken little persuasion to ally with Hitler because of a common anti-Jewish stance. He further suggests this would have the opposite reaction from Franco, who was part Jewish?

No.9

 

I never heard of this suggestion of Jewishness on the part of Franco. In any case both Portugal and Spain at the time were already quite empty of even of a shadow of a jew for hisorical reasons: the Inquisition had been abolished only one hundred years ago then and there had been no migratory wave of jews back, only a few criptojewish colonies here and there.

In any case, concerning supply trains from Germany etc, the Allies were providing a better deal concerning foodstuff imports, which Spain desperately needed. The Germans were only able to provide a few dozen Pz IVs and StuGs (heck, the only thing he could afford to export, and even so barely), but Franco knew well which way the wind was blowing.

More or less the same for Salazar /the Portuguese dictator), who never wanted anything to do with Hitler.

[ 18. March 2006, 05:36 AM: Message edited by: Za Rodinu ]

 

You surprise me a bit Rodi. I do not believe a Jewish issue was at the forefront of events in Spain during WWII, but equally I do not see that; ”Spain at the time were already quite empty of even of a shadow of a Jew for historical reasons”.

Certainly some 400 years ago Jews, (actually all non Christians), were obliged to officially and overtly ‘convert’ to Christianity in Spain, but just as people all over Europe have been obliged to change their religion in various countries at various times, (including Britain), this does not change the beliefs of the inner self. What I understand Toland is observing is that part of Franco’s ancestry were among those who made the public transition, without comment on Franco’s personal religious beliefs. Certainly there can be no suggestion that just because something happened 400 years ago it’s all forgotten and irrelevant. If that were the case it would not have been a cause or contribution of so much conflict in Yugoslavia, Poland and Ireland for example.

I agree on the foodstuff shortage in Spain and Hitler’s offer to expedite shipments of huge amounts of grain was a factor. Equally, Franco’s term that IF there was to be an alliance he would continue to import as much food as possible from the Allies until the actual point of declaration.

We have already covered much of the argument why Spain was not going to become a full participant in WWII, and the whole question of Franco and Spain will no doubt continue to provide historians with a gravy train they can ride ad infinitum. Depending on who’s take you read, Franco may be an anti-Semitic fascist or a cleaver Spanish Nationalist doing just enough to placate Hitler while, (among other things), aiding Jews to evade his destruction. The majority of Jewish organisations choose to thank Franco for the thousands Spain saved.

I agree a timeline of official reforms shows how long it took to make formal changes. However, I would suggest in real terms there were considerable differences between what took place and the official policy which appeased the Spanish Church, who, supported Franco’s Nationalist side in the Civil War and remained a major influencing factor among citizens. Could be Paco was one damn cleaver man in a very, very difficult situation?

No.9

 

No doubt that Francisco Franco, ruthless dictator as he was, was a very very intelligent man, adapting his own ideology to the practical situation in order to arrive at the best possible result while involving himself on the minimum of compromises.

On the jewish question, I cannot speak from direct knowledge on the Spanish environment, but I surely can speak on the Portuguese one and I assume the Spanish was quite similar (even the expulsion order was a Spanish idea and the Portuguese king at the time just found it expedient to follow for political reasons).

At least in Portugal the jews were massively expelled, going in the main to the Low Countries and Turkey. The ones that remained were the ones who accepted conversion. Of course a few of these may have kept their former practice undercover, in fact a village close to my birthplace contained a core of underground followers, who kept external catholic practices just for show. However these were a non-significant minority.

As a matter of fact the first synagogue to operate in Portugal for centuries was opened only 30 years ago! So one can say that as an organised entity, Judaism was extinct here, and otherwise only vestigial. I have reason to believe it would be similar in Spain.

For curiosity's sake, my grandmother's family name is Isaac. I never ever heard of any Jewish tradition in the family and we go a long way back!

No. 9, I can't quite see how I surprised you. The Expulsion Order was given by Fernando & Isabella around the time of Columbus, and since the the Inquisition held sway until about 1830, so the Iberian Peninsula was not much of a friendly place for jews to return to.

 

The Expulsion Edit is well know and beyond dispute Rodi, as is the power and influence of the Roman Catholic Church in Spain. I have never been under the impression the persecution, as such, continued past the 1800’s at the latest. I do not have a problem with accepting there was/could very well have been, a discrepancy between an official stance and reality.

I am aware in Italy, for example, Catholic priests are formally celibate as their religion dictates. In reality many have girlfriends which is quite an open secret though the church would never say as much. I am not contending there were extensive Jewish communities in Spain at the time of WWII, (or at other times come to that), but I believe there were several thousand at least who practised their religion, and were allowed to do so, provided they did not incur confrontation with the Catholic Church. All my books on Franco and Spain are currently boxed away, and will be for some time, so I can’t offer any quoted examples from them. However, it was not hard to find web references from reasonably substantial sources.

Viz:
Rabbi Yitschak Rudomin – Jewish Professionals Institute

World Association of International Studies

Am Yisrael – Jews in Spain

No.9

 

If I'm Hitler, I'm hoping I can throw the allies back into the sea on D-Day, set them back, move troops to the eastern front, fight to a standstill, convince Stalin that he won't win without the allies, get an uneasy peace, build up my forces, blitzkreig Russia, meet up with Japan and wait for another invasion attempt on the continent.

 

1.blitzkreig won't work in russia because of its size.
2.japan is in no position to attack the russians as long as china and u.s. is in the war.
3.nobody can convince Stalin anything.
4.just how you can throw 16 million allies back within one battle?

 

Very optimistic view point that one LuckyJack

 

Ironcross: well put, succint and to the point!

No.9: as I confess Jewish history in Spain in the XXth Century is not quite my most brilliant field, and it appears to me that you yourself don't exactly shine here, what if we both agree to throw in the towel simultaneously?

 

Hey, if I'm Hitler, I also have a huge ego. I never said it would work, but I'm sure he'd try it if he could.

 

Hey

 

Rodi, I am no expert on the Jews in Spain and have not claimed to be. I have done my reading on general European history and particularly on the Spanish Civil War because of it’s relationship to WWII and to quantify that relationship - in my mind at any rate. Outside of this I have no affiliation with either the Jews or Spain – which happens to be somewhere very low on my revisit list as it happens.

I think all this has come about because of an opinion of John Toland in his 900 page plus work on Hitler which I referred to, about Franco, historically, being of Jewish extraction. I also said; ”I do not believe a Jewish issue was at the forefront of events in Spain during WWII”. If you want to believe there wasn’t even; ”a shadow of a Jew” in Spain, I’m very happy to leave it at that.

No.9

 

Stalemate declared