Implying Polish Guilt in Holocaust To Be Outlawed

Belasar, the real meaning of that law becomes clear if you take into consideration extreme anti-Semitism that dominated the inter-war Poland. Writing down a Hebrew name on the shop was equal to invitation "Attack me, please!". I wish that were the only Polish anti-Semite law, but it wasn't. Let me mention realy outright barbaric regulation: In May 1937, the membership of the Polish Medical Association adopted a paragraph into their professional charter excluding Jews from the medical profession. Sounds familiar? Göring could have sued them for plagiarism.

 

Your right. In addition, the cooperation was not entirely in the east. Yes, the extermination camps were rooted in Poland and Eastern Germany, but many western occupied countries added to the antisemitic cause. Look no further then Vichy:

"Following the Wannsee Conference of January 20, 1942, German authorities prepared for the deportation of Jews from France and other western European countries. The appointment of Oberg in March 1942 accelerated the process: an initial transport of more than 1,000 Jews left from Compiègne for Auschwitz on March 27, 1942. On May 29, 1942, German authorities issued a decree—to take effect on June 7—that Jews in occupied France wear the yellow star.

After securing the agreement of the Vichy government, German officials and French police conducted round-ups of Jews in both occupied and unoccupied zones of France throughout the summer of 1942. Under the direction of Rene Bousquet, Secretary General of the Vichy police, French police arrested 13,000 Jews in Paris on July 16 and 17, 1942, interning them for several days under appalling conditions in the Velodrome d'Hiver sports arena. As Vichy policy dictated that initial deportation convoys from France carry only adult Jews to the East, police razzias literally tore families apart, as parents, grandparents, and elder siblings were separated from younger children at collection points and at French or German assembly camps.

By late summer, French authorities altered their policy in favor of deporting whole families. After this time transports included children and juveniles in convoys to the east.

By the autumn of 1942, some 42,000 Jews had passed through the Drancy transit camp on the outskirts of Paris. Nearly one third of these individuals came from unoccupied France. A significant percentage of these victims were foreign or stateless Jews, sacrificed by the Vichy government in a vain attempt to spare France's indigenous Jewish population. The final destination of these deportees was Auschwitz, where the SS murdered the vast majority by means of poison gas shortly after their arrival."

https://www.ushmm.org/wlc/mobile/en/article.php?ModuleId=10005429

Of course, it was the occupied Vichy government, but these were willing participants who added to this evil.

 

Had the Nazis completed their plans for the Final solution in 1936?

Jedwabne - I'm glad you brought this up. Poland has looked into this atrocity time and time again. It has not been swept under the carpet, by any means. Below is a link which relates the whole story. It contains information which may help people understand the complexity of emotions at the time. There are several sides to the story. It appears that all parties involved were 'guilty' of something, including the Jews.
What the Poles did, for whatever reason, whether it be revenge on the Jews involved in the deportation of 22,353 Poles from the area, or what, it was a war crime. Inexcusable. Vile.
But, by reading the whole story, you will see that it was not a cold-blooded act and that the Nazis were present.

I dread to imagine what it was like being overrun by the Russians and the Germans.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jedwabne_pogrom#German_investigation_of_1960.E2.80.931965

 

Gosh! How sinister. Putting names on shops in 1936.
J. Pursuer and sons, Freeman Hardy Wiilis, Dewhurst, Ponsford, Liptons, Jacksons, John Perring. . .Marks & Spencer. . .Jones the butchers. . .

Could England also have been complicit with the Final solution? A term not even conceived in those days.
Was the Polish government conniving with Hitler in 1936, working towards its own invasion?
Sorry, I have no references to prove that Poland, and England. . .and France, Italy and all the European countries with shop names were not part of the masterplan.

Photos of shops with owner's names on:

http://www.dailyecho.co.uk/heritage/archives/14197762.Shop_names_from_Southampton_s_past/



https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Final_Solution

Excerpt:

The Final Solution (German: (die) Endlösung, pronounced [ˈɛntˌløːzʊŋ]) or the Final Solution to the Jewish Question (German: die Endlösung der Judenfrage, pronounced [diː ˈɛntˌløːzʊŋ deːɐ̯ ˈjuːdn̩ˌfʁaːɡə]) was a German plan for the extermination of the Jews during World War II. This policy of deliberate and systematic genocide across German-occupied Europe was formulated in procedural terms by Nazi leadership in January 1942 at the Wannsee Conference near Berlin,[1] and culminated in the Holocaust which saw the killing of 90 percent of Polish Jewry,[2] and two thirds of the Jewish population of Europe.[3]

 

You can point your finger to any other European nation regarding participation in persecution of Jews during 20th century and you could be right, but the cricket-playing nation was not involved in that, quite the opposite.

Regarding Poland, we can talk about official participation in persecution of Jews until the capitulation of the state. Interwar Poland, however, was deeply involved in solving the "Jewish Problem”. In 1935 Polish Foreign Minister Jozef Beck hoped to acquire Madagascar to forcibly relocate its over three million Jews following ideas of racist and antisemitic thinker Paul de Lagarde. Please note that that was Polish official position, not just words of a lunatic.

The Poles went a step further with a claim that as a successor state that had once belonged to the German Empire, they had a right to territories of Madagascar. There is more on this subject but I will refrain from going in depth, for clarity.

What I want to say is that Poland is not that innocent as you might think - that is just the same ignorance that led the present day Polish government to silence voices about participation of Poles in persecutions of Jews in 20th century.

 

You seem to be getting your information from World future fund.
It has an agenda. What is your agenda? You appear to be very anti-Polish. Why is that?

You are making sweeping statements and you don't appear to have any knowledge of what life was like in those days. When studying history it is a common mistake to make hasty judgements without researching the background. Many articles can be biased or do not include the whole picture of the way of life at the time. History should always be viewed in context, not judged in hindsight. We should be careful when making judgements when we have not lived at the time. We do not really know what we would do in the same circumstances.

This Wikipedia article will show you that Jews willingly settled in Poland, which welcomed them. These Jews were escaping persection.
Despite many Jews not speaking Polish and therefore not fully integrating, there was a great deal of acceptance. ( compare with today's refugees/ migrants in Europe).

So, where did it all go wrong?
Politics. The Poles were not against the Jewish peoples per se but against their Bolshevik and Religious zionism.

It is here that you need to understand that Poland had been subjected to many invasions during the course of history.
Devastating attacks from the Swedes, Russians, Tartars, Turks, the Germanic races etc. After Poland had finally regained its independence in 1918, it was at war with Russia again. The people just wanted peace.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Poland

I will leave it there. History is just that, history. Sadly, we cannot change it. But learn from it we must, and all I see is history repeating itself again. The Poles, were told that the Jews murder and eat babies, using them as blood sacrifices. Today we are told that all male muslims are rapists and terrorists.

I feel I must leave this discussion now. Easter is approaching and I have an ever-increasing workload. As I said before, I had no intention of getting into such a discussion. There are many other topics on this forum which I would like to read.

 

]What I want to say is that Poland is not that innocent as you might think


You do not know what I think. What I know is - no country is inno-cent. However, I know better than to imply that every citizen of a country agrees with its policies. Poland is trying to sort out its own present day political problems. Please not not think that everyone is in agreement with this party's policies. Poland is Poland, and the Poles generally never agree on anything. They know it themselves. However, when push comes to shove, solidarity rules.

 

I know I should never get involved in these arguments. I'm stubborn so I will.

Cecylia, its clear you are passionate about Poland's rich history and I understand your trepidation with this line of thinking. However, the argument is not that all Polish people were involved in the Holocaust. Those "sweeping" comments you keep referring to are not sweeping at all. Posters have given various reasons and cited resources to their claims. No one is claiming that Poland was enitirely anti-semitic, but many Polish citizens did willfully aid the Germans in rounding up Jewish people during the push into the east. And on the other hand, there are many accounts of Jews being saved by Polish natives as well.

This whole thread is based on the law that the government is trying to impose that Poland had no general involvement in the Holocuast. I for one would say I do not see Poland as being a constituent during the Holocaust. However, evidence does suggest that some are culpable of aiding the Nazis and the Einsatzguppen in rouding up Jewish people during the invasion. It is what it is. As an American I am appalled at our history and our treatment of Native Americans and other ethnicities. On the other hand, and not forgetting the previous, I am proud of what we have accomplished as a nation of a free people, regardless of our tumultuous past.

 

(deleted multiple post)

 

Wasn´t the "Jew hating" quite usual all over the Europe? Not many countries can escape from being in the "club". When Jews escaped Europe many countries refused their escape ships entering the harbour or any other way to move to that country.

So no one can throw the first stone?!

 

No one is trowing stones here and nobody is implying guilt of just one side alone - read my post below. We just talk here about the events from our common European past, however terrible it is and about those who want to hide own embarrassing past under the carpet by outlawing the truth - in my humble opinion.

 

"Hide the past by outlawing the truth."

Well said.

Again, one can be proud of their country. But by forgetting the past, as the old adage goes, "we are doomed to repeat it."

 

I agree wholeheartedly, KJ Jr.
As I initially commented, it is not the voice of reason. Unfortunately, too much true history has been swept under the carpet and history is, indeed, being repeated. It is, however, one thing to know history but a another thing to implement that knowledge in order for it not to be repeated ad nauseum.
Constant finger pointing and re- opening of old wounds will not allow for healing but only serve to revive hatred amongst nations.
There comes a time to move on and to concentrate our efforts in solving today's problems because the next world war will be Arnaggon for all of us.

 

No real answers, just denial. That is why you still have staggering degree of anti-Semitism in a country where the number of Jews has been reduced from three million to metre thousand. Educate your children about what really has happened instead of outlawing the truth. This could once reduce the number of anti-Semites.

 

I've been reading this topic for days and I have to agree with you Tamino.

The same thing happend in my country Croatia. There were 40,000 jews before the WWII out of which 32,000 were killed. Today there are 500-2,500 of them. It' not only the Nazi's who we should blame for it but the Croatian then authorities Ustashas.

Today children are being taught by the school AND the Catholic church that Ustashas weren't Nazi collaborators and that holocaust is a lie. Many of the priests openly support Ustashas and give memorial masses to their leaders.

Keep in mind that Croatia is "secular" country.

 

Hi Tamino,
I think there is a small problem with your statement.
It can be summarize as follows; from the times immemorial the the Polish businessmen (and Jewish businessmen formed a large majority among them, because as many probably know the Polish economy was largely in their hands) proudly displayed their names using the largest font possible on their business signs.

Let's see a few examples:
Jewish shop in Kraków in the thirties. Frequently only the name was displayed, here JAKÓB GROSS:
View attachment 24292

More Jewish shops in Kraków; LEON FROMMER, HENRYK WILDSTOSSER:
View attachment 24293

Jewish shops in Lwów, 1933. The same pattern, the names displayed as prominently as it was possible: S.M.STANDING, P.WEINREB, ORJES & MALERMAN.
View attachment 24295

Rowno, 1934. A typical, Jewish small shop as seen in villages or small towns. There were literally hundreds of thousands of them. GROCERY, ICKO RYBAK.
View attachment 24294

Polish cities, towns and villages weren't like the modern Western metropoles where nobody knows his/her neigbour. People knew everything about their neighbours, who they were and what they were doing. This is another reason that why the narration "worse than SA painting the Davis stars on Jewish shops" is not only untrue but ahistorical too.
Actually I think it would be hard to find an example of a Jewish business without the owner name displayed on it. People distrusted anonymity. It was between you and the owner, and he guaranteed quality of his goods with his own name. There was no need for heavy handed regulations imposed by the government.
This is why the names were displayed so prominently. The name was everything.

 

"He who controls the present controls the past.
He who controls the past controls the future."

George Orwell, 1984

 

This is an easy one. And it will be a straight denial.

Józef Beck didn't hope to acquire Madagascar to forcibly relocate its over three million Jews following ideas of racist and antisemitic thinker Paul de Lagarde.
The man who wrote the book where you found this statement is an ignorant, an idiot or a popular history writer.

And any weaker statements like "he hoped to relocate non-forcibly" , "he hoped to relocate forcibly a few Jews", or even that the Poles wanted to send the Jews to Madagascar are untrue too.

You will not find any primary documents supporting these statements ever.

 

Let's see.
In the interwar period a Jew was a justice of the Polish Supreme Court. The thoroughly modern Polish criminal code was largely written by him in the thirties.
And the most known Polish historian and diplomat: Szymon Askenazy. In fact he represented Poland during the Paris Peace Conference and the Treaty of Versailles.

The most known Polish poets and writers, many with cult status to this day, and some of them the best Poland ever have had actually were of Jewish origin, check these names in Wikipedia: Julian Tuwim, Antoni Słonimski, Bolesław Leśmian, Mieczysław Jastrun, Bruno Jasieński, Aleksander Wat, Władysław Szlengel, Jan Brzechwa, Adam Ważyk.
And painters/illustrators: Bruno Schulz or Artur Szyk.

Reality was that the Poles frequented cinemas (mostly Jewish), to watch Polish movies (all made by Jewish film studios), directed by Jews (Józef Lejtes, Michał Waszyński), written by Jewish screen-players (Konrad Tom, Anatol Stern), filmed by Jewish cinematographers (Seweryn Steinwurzel).

And they listened to Polish music composed by Jews (Artur Gold, Henryk Gold, Jerzy Petersburski, Władysław Szpilman).

Or listened to Polish songs written by Jews (Jerzy Jurandot, Marian Hemar, Antoni Słonimski, Julian Tuwim, Andrzej Włast, Konrad Tom, Zygmunt Białostocki, Emanuel Schlechter) sang by Jews (Adam Aston, Wiera Gran, Zofia Terné, Kazimierz Krukowski).

Of course they listened to all that on a Jewish radio-set (from for example Elektrit, by far the largest in Poland), or listened to a gramophone record made by Jewish labels (like Syrena Rekord - 14000 titles).

These people were not some obscure losers, they were first rate Polish artists/creators.

And btw there were 438 Jewish officers among those executed at Katyń by the Soviets...

No, it wasn't like in the Nazi Germany, at all.

 

More on the names, below an excerpt from the 1929 Polish Business Directory, as can bee seen business owners are identified by their names and the place of residence. In a country without a national id it was the only method available.
View attachment 24296
Sznützer Elta (in red) was Bernie Sanders' grandmother, she sold "everything" but mainly booze.

A Jewish welcoming committee waiting for the Polish President Ignacy Mościcki, It is possible that Bernie Sander's family was there among these people.
View attachment 24297

The President visiting Jewish children having fun at a summer camp. Those summer camps were organized and financed by the known Jewish industrialist and philanthropist Hipolit Wawelberg (as shown on the banner).
View attachment 24298

On a more serious note, Polish Army instructors giving military education and training to Jewish fighters, members of Betar in 1938/39. At that time their leader was Menachem Begin, Yitzhak Shamir was an activist. The Polish Government provided them with money, training, weapons and other equipment.
In Poland Betar had 40 thousand military trained members. It was the largest, non-governmental paramilitary organization there.
View attachment 24299

It wasn't like in the Nazi Germany at all...