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Incident At UK Parliament

Discussion in 'The Stump' started by GRW, Mar 22, 2017.

  1. toki2

    toki2 Active Member

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    The attacker was a common thug with historic convictions for GBH, public disorder and carrying a knife. Quite a few of the victims were schoolchildren. How on earth could he believe that his actions would cow the nation? There is a FB post doing the rounds purportedly on a noticeboard in the underground. "All terrorists are politely reminded that THIS IS LONDON and whatever you do to us, we will drink tea. And jolly well carry on"
    Conspiracy Theory Alert. The woman who fell or jumped into the Thames during the road attack has a rope attached to her. Hardly 24 hours in and we have the nutcases circling.
     
  2. von Poop

    von Poop Waspish

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    It took about 30 seconds of the news breaking. Instant 'false flag' loons on Twatter and Icke.
    Some of the most pointless people on the interweb. Previously shouty denizens of park benches and pub droolers you could at least previously scatter with a cheerily aggressive 'F off, mate!'.

    Perhaps sadly, the tube notice was fake, though the sentiment not, which likely explains its reach into parliament etc.

    I've a mate in the 'public security' line.
    Always says there's only so much you can really plan for regarding stopping 'mad dog' attacks...
     
  3. Sloniksp

    Sloniksp Ставка

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    An American, Kurt Cochran celebrating his 25th anniversary has also been identified as the third fatality. His wife was seriously injured.
     
  4. GRW

    GRW Pillboxologist WW2|ORG Editor

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    Loved that meme, absolutely brilliant.
    Yes, the window lickers are out in force as usual. High time they brought back Care in the Community.
     
  5. toki2

    toki2 Active Member

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    Not only tea but a scone with jam and cream.
     
  6. Otto

    Otto Spambot Nemesis Staff Member WW2|ORG Editor

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    Everything fine here, business as usual. I find myself getting just a little bit angrier every time this happens. False flag types don't help that feeling.
     
  7. Ken The Kanuck

    Ken The Kanuck Member

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    Otto,

    I understand how you feel. Having lived and worked in Muslim countries I have developed my dislikes and prejudices based upon my experiences. But no matter what, I know that all people are not represented by the bad apples in their groups. Although it does seem that the Muslims have a higher percentage of arseholes than other groups. I must constantly remind myself that there are very good people in all groups and they all should not be tossed in a bonfire. As a matter of fact it would serve me well to hold myself to a higher standard if I wish to consider myself superior (which I do).

    But anger with these folks is not very much below the surface in my feelings.

    But I shall try to be a better man.

    KTK
     
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  8. CAC

    CAC Ace of Spades

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    Like everything, its not the sheep one looks for but the handful of shepherds...Islam needs to modernise...Christianity has almost completed its transformation...New blood at the top.
     
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  9. Sheldrake

    Sheldrake Member

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    Can we move on from the generic criticism of Islamic society?

    The attacker Masood, 52, was born Adrian Russell Ajao in Dartford, Kent. This man was not a member of London's mainstream Britain's Asian or African muslim immigrant communities. He converted to Islam after a life of petty crime, directly into Islamic extremism. He has this in common with some of the other jihadists, such as the recent Paris airport attack. Jihad is offered to violent petty criminals as a route to redemption. This phenomena has more in common with the recruitment of the weak and vulnerable into weird abusive sects than can be dissected from Islamic customs.
     
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  10. Ken The Kanuck

    Ken The Kanuck Member

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    No, criticism I believe is required.

    Let's rephrase your statement "Can we move on from the generic criticism of Nazi society"?

    KTK
     
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  11. GRW

    GRW Pillboxologist WW2|ORG Editor

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    Thirty years of terrorism in Ulster didn't turn every Catholic in Britain into an IRA sympathiser, so the "what do you expect if you bomb Muslim countries" argument is BS.
    Not that many years ago, animal rights fanatics were planting bombs. Who did we invade to radicalise THEM?
    The guy was a nutter pure and simple. If it hadn't been Syria, he would have invented another excuse.
     
  12. O.M.A.

    O.M.A. Active Member

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    With respect, it's as if you didn't read KTK's post.

    He clearly said it was Not All(tm), and you go ahead and counter with Not All(tm) Muslims are a problem.

    However, it's not disaffected Mormons who are turning fundamental and regularly killing people in other societies and cultures.
    It's not disaffected Hindus who are turning fundamental and regularly killing people in other societies and cultures.
    It's not disaffected Shintoists who are turning fundamental and regularly killing people in other societies and cultures.

    Muslims (NOT ALL) have a problem they need to solve, pussy-footing around offending them doesn't help.

    Just to be clear, I am not referring to all Muslims, just the one who commit violent acts or support it.

    Not all.
     
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  13. m kenny

    m kenny Member

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    Innocent Irishmen & women were literally plucked at random from the streets and framed for crimes they had no connection with. The Birmingham 6, Guilford 4 & Maguire 7 were convicted by mob justice and a public who did not care if the right Irishmen were caught as long as some Irishmen were made to pay. If it were possible all of them would have been executed. Only an Irishmen who came into contact with the Police (for any reason) will know of the way you were probed about when you were last in Ireland etc. I am not saying it was blatant but it was there and you knew you were being watched. I would say the modern anti-Muslim hysteria is worse but only because you can nearly always see that someone is a Muslim.
     
  14. m kenny

    m kenny Member

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    I have read many stories of Hindu/Muslim/Sikh killings/riots.
     
  15. O.M.A.

    O.M.A. Active Member

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    I'm not at all surprised you chipped in. You are the guy that said all religions are equally bad, but one is more violent. LOL! Stick to tanks bro.

    Why mention Problem B in a Problem A discussion? How often do disaffected Hindus become fundamental and kill people in their new homes? Do you have stats of that?
     
  16. Brian Smith

    Brian Smith Active Member

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    There is always hysteria and over reaction at times of crisis. In part this is driven by those who always want to pin the blame on either someone who may have committed the act or the security forces who did or should have known this person was about to act. The pressure we put people from both sides of the issue under is always going to bring about rash and incorrect conclusions.

    I was a regular visitor to London in the 80s and 90s and could easily share the frustrations of those who lived there with constant disruptions to daily life and ongoing fear of injury or death. I also visited Belfast of quite a few occasions during the same period. The welcome from all we met was overwhelming, so please to see people "from across the water". Everyone seemed to live in fear. Apart from the sight of an army patrol made up of soldiers who appeared no older than school kids the three memories that still live with me are

    Being taken for a walking tour of Belfast by the boss of the organisation we were visiting and the pride he had in showing his City to someone and the birth of the then new Music Hall.

    We stayed in a small hotel and the previous night there had been a party for one of the children connected to the hotel, a balloon left over from the party burst during breakfast. One member of staff hit the floor, several others slammed the kitchen door shut, they were all terrified.

    Being taken to an office with a high and wide view of the City and being given a pair of binoculars and told over there used to be this building and over there used to be that building, just gaps and rubble to see.

    As with all Nationalities, faiths and beliefs the majority are as much victims as those the terrorist target..
     
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  17. von Poop

    von Poop Waspish

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    Two very interesting commentators on these 'issues':
    Ayaan Hirsi Ali (@Ayaan) | Twitter
    Maajid (@MaajidNawaz) | Twitter
    Both of whom come from within, and do not welcome the blanket rejection that there is a current problem in many corners of their religion, while suffering all the slings & arrows of those declared apostate.
    Both of whom also understand the very specific differences between Muslim/Islam : Islamist/Islamism. (Important. Seriously. The terminology matters here.)
    Both of whom, perhaps particularly Nawaz (given his history), have more interesting things to say on how/why people are currently radicalised than most.
    And... sadly... both of whom have been declared 'Hate Speakers' by the SPLC for daring to raise the question of their own religion's issues, and are equally attacked by the far right. Which I personally think underlines a lot of the problem with the way this stuff receives knee-jerk reaction from some shouty seats, along with wide coverage of said shouting, rather than open & honest inspection.

    Of course it is mad to say ALL, but it's equally peculiar to completely deny there is a specific current issue. One that could perhaps be addressed more fully if a little dogma was put aside by those claiming (doubtless under what they feel are the best intentions) to condemn extremists and defend the humane view, while quite possibly inadvertently giving succour to areas that deserve more enquiry/criticism/honesty, and even condemnation.

    But this is a WW2 forum, and this stuff gets so mad/circular, so I'm taking OMA's advice as more general and pottering off back to read about tanks for a bit. ;)
    Parting shot: "If your interpretation of religion tells you to start killing people in it's name: Maybe start with yourself." No idea who said that, but I like it.
     
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  18. Sheldrake

    Sheldrake Member

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    I think you are missing the point.

    The man who carried out the attack on Thursday was a disaffected middle aged thug (of no particular religious faith) who then became a jihadi - in the name of Islam, but not as a representative of any Muslims other than IS.

    There are disaffected extremist Jews such as Baruch Kopel Goldstein who slaughter muslims.

    There are extremist white supremacists who slaughter people they don't like:-
    Charleston church shooting - Wikipedia
    2011 Norway attacks - Wikipedia
    Murder of Jo Cox - Wikipedia

    There are anarchists willing to slaughter for no understandable cause
    Ted Kaczynski - Wikipedia

    Throughout history there have been people drawn to causes in whose name they are willing to kill and die. Depending on your standpoint they might be heroes or villains. In the 1970s and 80s we faced the Red Brigades and Bader Meinhoff. These were patently a lunatic fringe.

    What made the difference in the case of Martin Mcguiness and PIRA was that a lot of people in Northern Ireland and elsewhere thought they had a point. As a member of the security forces of a democratic state I was on the high moral ground and outraged at attempts by the IRA to kill my comrades and countrymen. However, in retrospect, with two decades of hindsight I suspect we were on the wrong side of natural justice. Northern Irish Catholics had a justifiable grievance about living in an apartheid state where the jobs and political power were reserved for the proddies. Sure it became a lot more complicated with a barely discernible distinction between paramilitary and gangster.

    The question we have not really addressed is whether the policies adopted to oppose Islamic fundamentalism has helped or hindered the desired end state, GWB declared war on terror: would it have been better to respond to 9/11 as if it was a criminal act? Is it really OK to launch air attacks on civilians on the territory of states with which we are not at war? To what extent have these policies been driven by what plays well with US and European home audiences rather than the target populations? This may be heretical, but the desired end state has peaceful relations between states and religions.
     
  19. gtblackwell

    gtblackwell Well-Known Member

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    Not to many years ago I was in London and walked by the US Embassy. I was impressed by the number of Bobby's that appeared to be wearing bullet proof vest and definitely were carrying H&K MP-5's as well as side arms. They were walking the side walks. US Marines guard the ground and buildings of the embassy itself. . My very first thought after reading the British policeman was unarmed was why not ?. Westminster Abbey and Parliament are surely as much a target as the US Embassy.
    If well armed Bobby's are protecting o the embassy why not the attack site.

    I love to explore all of London and have encounter side armed bobby's in odd places as well as apparently unarmed ones. I could not ascertain why, no obvious targets. any ideas, my UK friends ?

    In other countries I have seen a well armed squad of Czech troops, not police, with an armored car outside a Synagogue in Prague and a very similar set up in Florence. I only saw two normally armed police normally attired at the US Embassy in Vienna. I have visited two US Consulates, one in Milan and one in Hamburg. The later had a single marine with sidearm, the former none. It was like going into an insurance agency with a US flag . The strangest thing I have encountered was in the Rome Airport some years ago. Lots of Italian soldiers holding 9mm SMG's . I keep thinking of if an "event:" occurred what the collateral damage might be.
    It did look like an alert of some kind. Many years earlier I encountered Dutch soldiers armed with US M1 Carbines at Schiphol airport. To me a good weapon for a crowded area.

    For those that think I am a strange tourist I am not, just a long time interest in firearms.

    Gaines
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 24, 2017
  20. Ken The Kanuck

    Ken The Kanuck Member

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    Unfortunately this type of behaviour appears to be condoned by Imams/mosques. Perhaps the congregation is too frightened to speak out? But it is not until the religious leaders and Muslim majority sincerely condemn this type of behaviour will it stop.

    A recent incident here in Canada is indicative of this.

    Montreal mosque criticized after visiting imam calls for Jews to be killed

    Note that it wasn't until this the story hit the main stream media, that the Muslim community condemned it. I don't think that the mosque has yet.

    The answer to the problem lies within the Muslim community.

    KTK
     

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