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Index to General Orders?

Discussion in 'Military Service Records & Genealogical Research' started by Pen, Jul 14, 2009.

  1. Pen

    Pen Member

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    Dave, et al,
    Just a quick note to say thanks again for your help ... and to let you know that I received the IDPFs on both Bud and Dennis Hayes this week! Tons of useful information in there and I appreciate you telling me how to get them. Your suggested wording for the request must have worked like a charm.

    Regards,
    Penny
     
  2. kerrd5

    kerrd5 Ace

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    Pen,

    That was really fast. Does his IDPF confirm that Dennis
    belonged to H Company?


    Dave
     
  3. Slipdigit

    Slipdigit Good Ol' Boy Staff Member Patron   WW2|ORG Editor

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    Can you scan and post them?
     
  4. Pen

    Pen Member

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    Yes, it does, Dave!

    Quite a lot of information is confirmed on Form Q.M.C. Form 1 - GRS which seems to be designated "Report of Burial AR 30-1815 & TM 10-630". The top of this form includes (in addition to his name, ASR, race, rank, country, & religion) his exact unit, "Co. H. 324th Infantry 44th Infantry Div.", the place - date- cause of his death, "Vic. La Neuveville, Fr. - 23 October 1944 - G.S.W. Chest"

    It also gave his exact burial location in the cemetery at Epinal, including who was buried on each side of him. It told of how he was identified at the time (Identification tags found on body = 2; Name of Deceased on WDAGO Form No. 28; also on PTA Receipt).

    A "Name of Emergency Addressee" was given - and I don't know if this man was an officer in Co. H or not - as "James F. Bohan, 1st Lt., Inf. 324th Infantry."

    There's more on this form, but you get the general idea. I was thrilled to have yet another confirmation of his unit and the other details of his death.

    I also found it quite interesting that, while they left one ID tag on his body for later identification, they attached the other one to the wooden cross on his grave. Doesn't say how, exactly, they attached it, though. I also noted on yet another form that they eventually sent Dennis' parents a picture of his grave there. I have never seen that picture, but I wonder if it isn't somewhere in the family, even yet.

    It was a really quick turn around from the time of request to the time of receipt. Imagine my surprise when I saw this bulging manila envelope in my post office box! I couldn't believe they fulfilled the request so quickly!

    Thanks again for helping me get this!
    Penny
     
  5. Pen

    Pen Member

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    Jeff, I doubt you'd want me to scan and post every page in here, but I could do the more pertinent ones. Dennis' file is 35 pages and Bud's (Arthur's) is 74. Bud's is longer because my grandmother wrote an awful lot of letters to the Army (and I think she sent one to President Truman, too). If I scan some of these pages, where should I post them? do they go in a thread of their own or within some subject already existing?

    The files almost tell a story of their own, reading between the lines. Evidently Bud's widow had remarried (and I found it interesting that I finally got the information of who she married this way - I'd never found it anywhere else)... and Bud's mother (his father died in May after Bud was killed in Feb) was determined to be named "next of kin" and get his body back as well as every single personal item he had. She was one very determined lady. (Maybe this is where my kids get their tenacity? :rolleyes:). She finally succeeds and Bud's body is sent home in 1948. Copies of each of her hand written letters and copies of the answers are included in his file, along with the other military forms surrounding his death, burial, disinterrment, and final shipment to the U.S.

    Bud's file, while containing more total pages than Dennis', neglects to have the same type of "Report of Burial" form in it. A pity, as much useful information was on Denny's. However, there is mention on one of the forms that he was killed by "Sniper Fire".

    A lot of the enclosures, as I said, are letters from the government to the next of kin, asking for directives for final disposition of a serviceman's remains and explaining to the NOK what their alternatives are. There are forms showing personal effects (precious few).

    An interesting note was how careful and considerate the military was of the family's grief. This was evidenced by them actually sending a letter questioning whether the family wished to have Dennis's billfold included with his personal effects, as it had been damaged and was blood-stained.

    Another thing I found interesting was that the Army actually held, and a report of it is contained in the IDPF, a "Summary Court Martial" concerning determination of the next-of-kin and disposition of personal effects. It appears to have been very similar to most civil proceedings concerning wills of deceased persons in the U.S. (in my experience).

    Anyway, it is all terribly interesting to the family and especially this old family historian. I'm very glad I sent off to get the IDPFs - I found information I'd never have gotten otherwise. Please advise and I'll scan and post some of the more pertinent and common to all IDPF pages for others to see. (and any others you think you might be interested in)

    Warm Regards,
    Penny
     
  6. LRusso216

    LRusso216 Graybeard Patron  

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    By all means, post them right here. I've been following this thread, and I'm curious to see what you have. Scan them, then attach them to a post. I'm looking forward to them.
     
  7. Pen

    Pen Member

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    Thanks, Lou. I'll do that. It may be tomorrow or Sunday before I can get this accomplished (I really hate being only SEMI retired - it so infringes on more interesting pursuits. :grumble:). Barring any instructions from other mods, etc., that contradict your request for where to place them - I will get pages from both these servicemen's IDPFs scanned and posted in this thread. I think anyone who hasn't had reason to request one of these, or simply hasn't yet done it, will find them interesting to read.

    Some of the pages are a little blurry (as if they were #3 or #4 of multiple copies made with carbon paper on a typewriter), but most are quite clear and should scan very well.

    Regards,
    Penny
     
  8. Slipdigit

    Slipdigit Good Ol' Boy Staff Member Patron   WW2|ORG Editor

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    Lou knows the drill. By all means post anything you wish to post.

    Sounds like you have lot of documents there.

    I looked up[ La Neuveville in Google maps. It was about 20 miles SW of Luneville. There were also a lot of hits on tourist bureaus for the little town. I'll bet you could get information as to the approximate location of where Denny was killed.

    It would not be uncommon for Bud to have died in the manner he was killed. Tank commanders spent a lot of time with their head and upper torso sticking out of the hatch of the tank, as visibility was poor.
     
  9. Pen

    Pen Member

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    I sure hope I can do this correctly. First time for everything, right? Obviously this isn't the entire IDPF I received, but the other pages were various forms that duplicated information found on the ones I enclosed and such things as a copy of Dennis' father's death certificate (almost unreadable), etc.

    I couldn't get the scanned images small enough without making them unreadable; hence, the pdf format. I tried to include everything I thought would be of interest to those who aren't members of Sgt. Hayes family. Perhaps this will give others at least some idea of the type documents in an IDPF.
     

    Attached Files:

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  10. Pen

    Pen Member

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    Thanks for looking La Neuveville up for me, Jeff.

    Finally, today, I got to read through the files slowly. I discovered that Bud's place of death is listed as "Ayl, Germany". The most I'd ever known was found in a small history about that unit. Here's an excerpt from that history of Baker Co., 778th TB, written by one of the men who was there, Arthur Wood (emphasis on Bud's name is mine, of course). I like Mr. Wood's writing style, don't you?:

    " We got orders to pull out and join the 94th at Sierck where they were assembling a large force to crack the 11th Panzers. So on the morning of the 16th of February we packed and got ready to take off. At 1400 the column moved and arrived at our destination in Montenack just south of Sierck at 1700. The tanks moved into position that night and jumped off in the morning with the 301st Regiment at 0650. They went clear through to Munzigen and Faha before pulling up. Old Dong returned to us after a short sojourn in the hospital and brought Toler and Bland with him. Then the mad dogs of war began to run amok, Baker was hit again and again. Foul blows that sapped the life-line that had held us together all through the campaign began to leave serious gaps in our ranks that could not be restored. They hit us a stunning blow at Freudenburg as a sniper got Lt. Foy and then we lost Bashford, Swede Hanson and Bob Akins in a short space of time. Across the Saar River to Serrig where we lost Lt. Grubbs, Chance and Willie T. in succession. Old Silver left us about this time to go back home, God’s country and the only free place left in the entire world. Blight, Armond, D’Alessandro and Mates were given a pat on the back and upped a step. Those were the days of Serrig, you remember, don’t you? Lashing out like a dinosaur frothing at the mouth, they struck down Duarte, Seegers and then Bud Hayes also sending Lt. Arnold, Frazier Beavers, Frank DeCoursey, and Bill Presley along to the men in white. Padrnos came back to us and Lt. Allen became one of the family. A hurry-up call came from Pellingen, some SS fanatics had holed up and were giving the boys on the river road some trouble and old reliable Baker was thrown in to plug up the hole, Reeling, bobbing, and staggering under the pounding at Serrig and Zerf we once more hit the Jerries a decisive blow driving them out of Pellingen and giving the doughs from the 376th a chance to dig and make it uncomfortable for Jerry. But what a toll to pay. When the smoke of battle had cleared, 13 of the gang had gone down before the terrific and fanatical onslaught of those maniacs. Lt. Allen and Cooper were missing, Bridges and Carl Parker had been unmercifully shot down when their tank had been hit. Ray Boone, Holt, Sieg, Clyde Harrison. Mates, George Woods, Jesse Sherard, Stern, and Rossi had been wounded and evacuated to the hospital. Rossi returned the following day and then we lost Beladino and Beaton to the boys in white."

    The whole of it can be found here:

    http://www.11tharmoreddivision.com/history/baker_company_778.htm
     
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  11. LRusso216

    LRusso216 Graybeard Patron  

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    Penny, these are very powerful documents. Thank you for sharing them. I can only imagine the pain and grief felt by those receiving these telegrams. Despite the circumstances, it seems as though the Army tried to be as sensitive as it could be.

    Thanks again.
     
  12. Pen

    Pen Member

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    You're most welcome, Lou. It's wonderful to talk to others who are interested in this, too.

    I agree. Reading the back and forth letters in these IDPFs, I had the same feeling: that our military did try to be sensitive & thoughtful to bereaved families.

    I was struck by what a stressful duty the graves registration (?) people of the QMs had in dealing with it all. It must have been sort of overwhelming from start to finish, when you think about it. All those letters to be answered from greaving widows and mothers asking questions about "their boy". Oh my. It's certainly a job I would hate having to do; and I commend those who did it and managed somehow to be thoughtful and graceful in their answers.

    They are very powerful documents. The pain they represent is almost palpable, even just reading the copies.

    On another note:
    If anyone has a chance, I wish they would read that history of Company B (link in my previous post). I'm having the dickens of a time finding the places Mr. Wood mentions in it. Perhaps he has misspelled some place names? I can find Cherbourg and Metz, but none of the places he mentions in between. I did find Serrig, Germany ... and Ayl - which are the places where Bud's death is mentioned. Turns out they're only about 10 minutes apart.

    Any help on that?

    Thanks all,
    Penny

    p.s. Thanks for the salute, Lou.
     
  13. LRusso216

    LRusso216 Graybeard Patron  

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  14. Slipdigit

    Slipdigit Good Ol' Boy Staff Member Patron   WW2|ORG Editor

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    Penny,

    Much to say, short moment to say it. Read through everything. Graves Registration people really did seem to care, even in their official duties.

    I noted he had a fractured L tibia and fibula. Makes we wonder about his cause of death. Was it a vehicle wreck, artillery or did have a fall? I hope one day you can find that out.

    His personal effects- Expert Combat Infantryman Badge (CIB). He probably valued that greatly, he certainly walked through hell to earn it.

    I'm out of Salutes, gave you ding on the scales (upper right of posts). It is worth more points from me anyway.
     
  15. Pen

    Pen Member

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    Lou, thanks very much for that link! I'll make a print-screen copy of that and add it to my files. It will be a nice help in sort of marking locations.

    Jeff, I wondered about that fractured leg, too. However, the "official"? ... cause of death is listed as "gunshot wound (G.S.W.) chest" ... I think it's on the first form of that pdf file. So, I don't know what happened to break his tib-fib ... maybe he was hit more than once? Maybe he fell down an embankment or something when he was shot? I doubt I'll ever find out for sure about that.

    Anyhooooo ... thanks for the ding! Yer a hunny! ;)

    I'll dig around through Bud's IDPF and see if there are any forms or such that are essentially different from Denny's. If so, I'll post them.

    A great deal of Bud's file involves the decision/naming of next-of-kin. That must have stressed the whole family pretty badly at the time; but I think none of that would be of any interest to anybody outside our family.

    The military certainly did not take anything for granted in handling any of it. If the soldier's widow (#1 next of kin) had remarried, it had to be either stated officially by her or a marriage certificate showing her latest marriage had to be provided. If no widow and no children over age 21, and dad (who was next in line) was deceased, the family had to provide his death certificate. There was a tremendous amount of paperwork involved in getting these questions answered satisfactorily ... just so the soldier's personal effects could be shipped home and, later, decisions about his burial made.

    I never thought about how much was involved until I read these IDPFs. Right down to the Nth detail: one letter was sent to Uncle Prent and Aunt Bessie asking about whether or not to send Denny's billfold and a money order made out to Uncle Prent that was in it. Both were blood-stained and the military was desirous of knowing if it would distress the family if they included these items with his other effects; but they were also disinclined to withhold those items without the family's consent. This was followed by a letter from Aunt Bessie saying they wanted everything he had, including the blood-stained items. Letters requesting death certificates of the fathers (both these boys' dads died before their final burial within the U.S.), etc. It must have just been a tough time all the way around.

    It's all terrifically moving to read.

    p.s. Interesting side note (to me, anyway): Bud was temporarily buried at the military cemetery at Hamm, Luxembourg, Germany before being reburied here in Texas in 1948. That's where General Patton rests, too. What an amazingly beautiful place it is today. Can you imagine visiting that in person? The pictures alone are enough to bring one to tears, so I would think being there in person would be an even more emotional thing. Incredible.
     
  16. Steve R

    Steve R recruit

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    I happened upon this incredible thread when I searched for Morning Reports for the 44th ID. The quality of your exchanges compelled me to do something I don't do often- register for another web service.

    I have been researching my Dad's WWII history for about 2 years now. I have a few photographs and a few documents but very little specific information. I've read around a dozen books and toured the trail of the 44th's Command Posts and major battles in France, spanning Lorraine from Luneville (Forest de Parroy) to Bliesbruck along the German border.

    I've just returned from a 4 day trip to Lorraine France to attend a series of ceremonies organized by the French in the Luneville district to honor the Americans who liberated their region 65 years ago this month. There were about 20 American vets, French and American Honor Guards, General Officers from both countries, a squadron of US Cavalry and townspeople turning out everywhere we went. It was incredibly heartfelt by the French and almost overwhelming to us Americans.

    One thing I can contribute right away is that the French have a strong tradition of collecting facts from the war. To illustrate, when we went out to Leintrey (on the edge of Parroy), just east of Luneville, to dedicate a site to Capt. Patch, son of 7th Army commander Alexander Patch, the event organizer announced that after extensive research of reports and witness interviews, they had finally determined the exact location and circumstances of Capt Patch's tragic death. In another town a research committee had spent several years developing the precise details of crash of a B-24 to the east of the town.

    It is therefore possible that a local historical committee in the vicinity of the Denny & Bud's demises will have even more detail, although there is no certainty of it.

    There is a French Lorraine Battlefield Memorial Commission, which is headed by Mr. Gerard Bazin who may be of assistance in locating records or witnesses in southern Lorraine.

    The Epinal Battlefield Cemetery is currently managed by Mr. Tom Cavaness.

    I have some contact information for these folks if you can use it.

    The postings in this thread are invaluable for my research. I'll be happy to try to answer any questions, supply documents, pictures or findings as the group might request.

    Steve
     
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  17. Slipdigit

    Slipdigit Good Ol' Boy Staff Member Patron   WW2|ORG Editor

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    Welcome Tom, glad you have joined and are willing to work with Penny.
     
  18. applevalleyjoe

    applevalleyjoe Member

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    I echo SteveR's comments...this has been an incredible thread and great learning experience :clap: Pen's search for information, the numerous leads and links (many which were new to me) provided by Forum members in response to her queries, her follow-up actions and then the posting of the results of these numerous actions...all have served as a "how to" tutorial for those of us new to this type of research.

    I salute all of you: pen, slipdigit, steveR, LRusso216, kerrd5, snowfrog61 and Baker324 :salute:
     
  19. Baker324

    Baker324 Member

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    I happened back on this thread and took a look at the IDPF report. I can tell you from my own uncle's IDPF, that they usually included the Nord De Guerre map coordinate for the vicinity of death. In this case it is Q-203-011 which translates to grid WQ203011. From the B Company history that I have, it shows that Baker Company was in the same area on Oct 22-23, 1944.

    I found a great site to translate these map coordinates into Long/Lat. I usually put them into Google Earth, but the site has a Map quest link. The site is The "Coordinates Translator" Again, the European campaign used the Nord De Guerre map for France, Belgium and Germany. I hope this helps.

    Also, as an ironic coincidence my uncle also died of a GSW of the chest and was also hit in the leg. His wound disarticulated the fibula. Accounts about my uncle saw him running under heavy MG42 fire. My uncle's wounds were both on the right side. Just thought I would share the coincidence and map information.

    Baker 324


     
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  20. rogish

    rogish Member

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    It's unfortunate I didn't find this thread 4 weeks ago. It seems as though I could have saved myself A LOT of time! I started an exhaustive search after Thanksgiving for details related to Edward Carl Goldner Jr (my Step-Fathers Uncle), who was killed on 7 Nov 1944 as a member of Company B, 324th Infantry Regiment, 44th Infantry Division. I've already sent for an IDPF, as well as the Rosters and Morning Reports for the months surrounding his death (pending receipt).

    Here are the facts as I know them:

    Edward Carl Goldner Jr.
    US Army, Corporal
    Serial Number - 36579778
    Date of Birth - 1 Jan 1924, Detroit
    Killed - 7 Nov 1944, France
    Unit - Company B, 324th Infantry Regiment, 44th Infantry Division
    Home of Record – Detroit, Wayne County, Michigan
    Buried - White Chapel Cemetery, Troy, MI 14 Aug 1948

    Websites that have been helpful in providing information, or helping to 'paint' the picture:

    44th Infantry Division (United States) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    44th Infantry Division - United States
    WELCOME TO THE 44th DIVISION/71st,114th,324th REGIMENT SITE
    44th Infantry Division 324th Infantry Regiment (324th Company D Tribute)
    Obtaining Unit Records: Army
    American Battle Monuments Commission
    Lloyd Nelson Boren

    I've attached Edward's photo, as well as a text file (zipped) with the 425 members of the 324th that were killed during WWII. The list includes name, rank, company, date of death, home of record.

    Steve
    [FONT=&quot][/FONT]
     

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