Discussion in 'Medals, Insignia, Badges & Recalls' started by email@example.com, Oct 23, 2008.
I like those tinies, these are the German right? Do you have any Dutch ones?
Nice display plate to go with the set RR Salute to you , never seen one of those for 'real' besides in the catalogue .
so far I only found some lucifers/matches from Dutch WhW series Skip ,and city shields from dutch cities every now and then ..
Dutch WhW items are pretty rare to find on the jumblemarkets and online marketsites even here in Holland.
I like the display RR is showing , looks very good !
Heinrich , have you tried the Dutch Winterhulp stamps they are not so expensive and easy to find at Dutch stamp dealers?
Certainly nice and hardly see before
Winterhulp items will be classified as Gau 45...just though someone might find that useful...
Avoided stamps until now Skip as the temptation to start collecting those too is dangerous for me
Although I like WhW items I try to buy them only as complete series as much as possible .. I prefer the older polical campaign badges , the historic series , military figurines ,wikingships etc . The toys and flowers and city shields and traffic signs series etc I let pass mostly .
Here's a piece I got as a gift from a good friend long ago already . Actually it was the fist German piece I got and also the start of my collection .
It's a Ritterkreuz KvK without swords . As I don't have any references for RK KvK's can't say if its an original or not . It was a souvenir brought from Germany in the late sixties already and seen some rough handling over the years . The short piece of ribbon originally came with it and it certainly seems to have been well worn .
Its quite thick and heavy and weighs far over the 30 grammes I can max weigh with my pesola scales ..My estimation it wil be close to or just over 40 grammes . Couldnt find any maker marks on it , nor do any markings show on the clasp . Was hoping some of you can tell me a bit more if possible from these pix ?
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I don't know enough on these to venture guesses tas to originality or not? but if its a good piece-congrats on owning one.
General rule of thumb on these is that there is always a hallmark on the 'six o'clock' arm of the cross...800, 830, etc....
The numbers are very soft for this prestegious of an award.
Here is an advertisement from 1968 of a German company making TR era awards for sale to the US.
I really dont know RR ..
Its definately not made of silver ...it doesnt oxidize or blackens in any way . Its not tombak either ..idd say its some heavier kind of feinzinc manufacture wich was guilded once originaly..
Compared it to modern polish copies and its not the same thing , it weighs almost the double and feels like the material is much more dense where the copies felt 'soft' and were of a more ehh how you say ..bubbly (?) cast material . The copies were much darker in material colour too.
Its lacking any rough cast mold-lines on the sides wich the Gude copies always show ..checked that already , its no Gude .
Pity cant give an exact weight of it yet .
My friend kept it in an old bucket with screws and bolts for ages..he was shaking the bucket to find a bolt when it showed up and I took it out taking it for a worthless kvk2 at first . He used to collect WW2 helmets in his younger days and took it back from a schooltrip to Berlin where he picked it up from a flea market together with a Spanish civil war german helmet and a few small ribbon bars wich he gave me also .
Stuffed the helmet somewhere in the attick ,will post some pics of that when its refound again as i do need to do some archeological digging for that ..it's kinda full up there with lots of ancient boat anchor tube radio equipment from my HAM radio days wich really weighs tonnes
Btw ..Checked the six O clock leg ..no marks visible .
could very well be a zincer just like many of the later KvK's in both classes. I catually think the Z's look better than many bronzers
I can help you some-mainly dealing with Cloth items like rank insignia-as well as photos and such.
This award was ONLY produced in German Silver. There is no zinc RK of the KVK.
Here are 3 pics of an original Deschler RV des KVK. This cross is pictured on page 204 of the book 'The war merit cross' by Gordan Williamson & Josef Charita. You can see the hallmark on the bottom of the cross '830' and the major differences in overall construction. Notice the date is soft on your example as I pointed out earlier.
I am not trying to be negative about your piece but I think it is a copy.
Hmm Helmut Weize got a feinzinc RK KvK with swords on his site too , RR.
Not marked also and it looks like the same metal colour too .
He's only asking 3500 USD for that piece ...
the traces of guilding on my KvK are curious too ..
Btw : no offence taken RR ,appreciate all input ,and i know the drill with jerry militaria , soo much junk around that i had my share of fakes over time too I think its not a fake ..
Hi Heinrich, it would be good for you if its a good one. Loads of good books and material on the web for research. Couldnt help laughing at the bucket story. Sounds like someone else I know. I know nothing about these but good luck in finding out.
I stand behind the comment that they were only produced in genuine silver. The cross w/o swords should weigh 33.8 grams and should measure 54 mm across. There were only 48 of these awards presented (documented to date) so there would be NO reason to have any produced in zink. This would be like making RK Oaleaves out of zink...not going to happen. In late 1944 there was a 'gold' version instituted and it is widely believed that silver crosses were simply gold plated to create this late award. There were a grand total of 21 of these awarded by wars end...it is considered to be one of the rarest TR era awards.
* I suggest that you take this cross to a different forum for different opinions. The last thing I want to do is look like the guy that is beating someone up. Post it on the WAF, you will surely get your answers in short time.
** Gordan Williamsons book does say that there is a possibility of a zink RK des KVK being produced but it would be considered rare and would have only been used in museums or for patriotic displays, never for issue.
Iam a member of WAF and Warrelics too , but never hang out there much. I'm mainly there for quick photo refence or/and comparisons of finds .
Soon the pics will find their way to the buffs from here via google too , i have no doubts the RK will be noticed . If i have to go to Germany later this year can bring it for an expertise to Mr Weitze or Mr Niemann too as Holland's just next door
Thanks for the book refence RR ..gotta get me a copy of a copy of a copy of Mr williamsons book
Heinrich , if you like stamps look at my WWII collection in this militaria section. I also have the Dutch Legion stamps posted there