Interesting article saying they found the man who killed Wittman.

Ekins has every right to feel however he likes about the side that he fought against. I doubt very much he gives a tinkers cuss what anyone else thinks, nor should he.

If you believe the bulk of German soldiers of the period, and particularly their officers, took any kind of oath lightly, then you're placing a modern veneer on contemporary military & social mores. Without their legendary devotion to Oaths it's quite possible that the Heer would never have fully engaged in the Hitler plan in the first place.
As for "So it's OK for people to die" - If they're successful and quite obviously dedicated operatives of a criminal organisation that was assisting the repression of half the democratic countries of the world by scorched earth means - yep, fine by me, and by every man jack of those attacked populations. Not everything is fair game for modern relativism...

Likely not, but neither did Dirlewanger as he raped his way along, Irma Grese & her dogs, or Stroop as he proudly compiled his Warsaw album. But personal perceptions of 'rightness' do not give absolution or justification for participation in any criminal act or organisation. They perhaps just underline how misguided the individual was, and how successful the overall institutionalised crime was.


My real problem though, is the ongoing Wittmann obsession itself.
The very fact the man crops up so often, and is 'studied' in such detail.
People often seem happy to disregard that a good deal of the Wittmann legend, and it's contemporary traces, comes direct from the pen, photographers, and propaganda system of Goebbels.
There are reams of books, websites, etc. dedicated to this Signal Magazine poster boy, and yet comparatively so little devoted to blokes like Mr Ekins. Chaps that went to serve a just cause, did their bit, and went home (or didn't ), or even to the average landser who carried the real story of human beings caught up on the wrong side of that conflict, and never once cheerfully posed for photos to assist the regime's lies.

The Wittmann thing's like a big sponge that soaks up Historical effort, often at the expense of more balanced or critical enquiry. I imagine this hagiography still puts a smile on the old bastard Goebbels's face, wherever he's burning now.

~A

 

cbiwv: Same here, my grandfather had served in the Indian army, the little information I have on him is he was stationed near Egypt. He never had anything bad to say about Germany, Italy, Japan, Britain, or any other nation that fought in the war. From the little he would talk about the war, he was very respectful when talking about his former enemy.

GrandsonofAMarine: I didn't say anything like that, I however took offense to the fact that you believe a man DESERVED to die for fulfilling the role of a soldier (which requires you to shoot at your enemy in most cases) during an all out war.

Do you honestly believe all soldiers fight for the same cause? Go out and ask soldiers who have just gotten back from Iraq or Afghanistan, ask them why they fought and what they thought of war. This will give you a small glimpse of what it was like back then. Why just a small glimpse? Times have changed, and war service in many countries was mandatory back then.

Not all Germans committed atrocities during the war, there were definitely those who did but to tar all with the same brush is absurd. Do you know how many soldiers had fought for Germany during the war? Nearly 20 million, that is an unthinkable number in this day and age. Do you think all of those men where antisemites who loved to rape and pillage towns the first chance they could get?

And you do realize the Nazi's had used intimidation and trickery to gain votes? I think there is a user on this forum who once wrote about how his relative was forced to join the Nazi Party in Berlin after the S.S. threatened to close down his shop if he didn't.

I think you should read up on how the Nazi's came to power first, how many people they killed, how much they influenced the vote, and how they tricked respected figures into unintentionally helping then. And no, this isn't the kind of trickery you see politicians commit today but the kind where 10 of hundreds of people are killed in a single night and is covered up because they have friends in the right places who know how to spin things to make you look like good.

Any you also make it look like the Germans did nothing while the Nazi's had power, there were those who did do plenty of behalf of the masses. It's the minority who empower the masses, it's a shame the Nazi's had things in place to ensure the masses would not get the full picture.

 

I think using the name of Deaths Head is "hateful and backward", so we're even.Excuse me, but I don't think much of phony moralists like you who feign outrage over unsympathic comments about ruthless killers.

The German soldier was trained to wage a ruthless war with no pity. Why we should give them what they didn't give to others is something only you know.

I respect his skill, but not him. He was a man. Unless he was a psychopath and had no ability to distinguish right from wrong, then he and every other German soldier deserves to be seen as a "bad guy".

Their raison d'etre was to expand Germany's borders at the expense of others.They destroye the lives of MILLIONS. They wrecked homes and bodies with equal skill and ferocity.

How can you defend such people???

 

Von Poop I am more obsessed with how the Russians managed to win with all the issues they had to overcome such as the purges, outdated equipment, and a army that performed horribly against Finland. Then the manner in which they moved their industries beyond the Ural mountains. It is so impressive to me.

 

Good point on the oaths thing, however, it goes back to the original question of how many people actually fight for a single cause? Can you elaborate on "dedicated"? There were those who were indeed very dedicated to the either Hitler, the war effort, Germany, or a combination. Does taking an oath (again, oaths were taken by many soldiers at the time to their nations, monarchs, etc) put them on par with a Nazi fanatic and make them "dedicated operatives of a criminal organisation"?

The Nazi's were deemed a criminal organization post war where they not?

 

Sorry, but nothing justified invading, raping, and pillaging, countries that had done nothing to Germany

While I can understand some resentment towards the French for their harsh occupation of the Ruhr in 22-23, I DON'T get the blind hatred of Jews or the need to take over countries that presented no threat.

The people are guilty because it was THEY who made sure the plans were fulfilled. That is where the guilt of Wittmann and the German people lay.

The German war machine needed tens of millions of people in order to achieve it ends They got those people. Damn straight they deserve criticism and blame.

Just as we as a country bear responsbility for the decisions made by our government so does the German people for the decisions made by the Nazis.

Do remember that the Nazis were democratically elected. In a partiamentary democracy like Weimar was, it is the largest party that generally gains the Chancellor/Prime Minister spot. The Nazis were he largest party in Germany by July of 32'. That alone makes the German people complicit.

That being said, the German people should have not their entire history tainted by one 12 year period of insanity. It has way too much to be proud of for the Nazis' to overshadow it. But that is for another day and argument.

 

You're right, those Afrika Korp guys were some of the worst human beings ever witnessed by the Allies. How dare they show chivalry on the battlefield and deny request to segregate prisoners based on color!

Also, you do realize the Nazi party was not seen as bad a thing as it was post war right? The Nazi craze spread all over the world before mostly dying out at the start of the war, even America had a few Nazi parties.

I for one can defend them since I realize no soldier is the same, they may look the same in their uniforms but actions are worth more. There were those who did wrong under the uniform and there are those who did good under it and still do to this day regardless of nationality. I always defend the good, never the bad.

Edit: Do you think antisemtism only existed in Germany or that the Germans were the worst (talking about before Broken Glass)? Have you also missed all my posts mentioning conscription? You also realize a lot of the territory Hitler had initially taken was territory they lost at the end of World War 1? It was also territory where ethnic Germans were being targeted or persecuted.

 

When I was deployed to Desert Shield I did not give Kuwait a second thought. There was nothing important about them to me and I did not care about them personally. My goal was to survive that conflict and to come out of it intact without losing a limb. Naturally I cared about most of the guys who were fighting beside of me but I would not be honest if I did not admit there were a few of them that I could care less about. They were not good people and their actions justified how I felt.

 

Everyone in this thread should re-read the "The Diary of Anne Frank" and then come back to the discussion. I think what is lsot often times when discussing WWII is the sheer insanity and barbarity of the Nazi regime.

That regime is who Wittmann fought for.

TO paraphrase Grant to Lee at Appomattox, they fought for the worst cause every devised by man. That Wittman was brave and skilled there is no doubt. SO too was the Heer.

But the simple truth is that those men were sent to wage war for one of the most dangerous and cruel governments in history.Nothing can erase that fact.

 

The Nazis were the largest party? At their height I believe they had what 2 million members out of a population of what 70 million or around that.

 

It doesn't matter that they showed "chivalry on the battlefield". It only matters for WHOM and WHY they were fighting. Both of those are clearly in the morally ignoble category.

So what that there was Nazi organizations in other countries? For the most part, they were small and of little consequence. The world was certainty not in love with the Nazis.

I will also note that the mere existence of such groups says something about the anti-semitism and myopic view of those who sympathized with said parties.

Yes, not every German soldier committed atrocites. That is certainly true. Most in fact, did not.

But the fact that you are missing is WHY and for WHOM they were fighting What did that uniform they wore stood for? In Germany's case, it stood for violent expansionism, industrialized genocide, and extreme nationalism.

I cannot laud those who fought for some of the worst reasons possible. Their bravery, courage, and sacrifice, was truly a waste for it was something that was dying for TO PREVENT.

 

Utter British Rubbish, just weeks ago I saw a documentary that showed Only Canadian Tanks were close enough and in proper position to knock out "The Black Baron"

 

Yes, they were. By that I mean VOTERS, not necessarily members.The Nazis' from 29 saw gains with each election.

For more information, look to Shirer''s "Rise and Fall of the Third Reich", biographies of Hitler by Toland, Kershaw, and Fest, Evans "Coming of the Third Reich" to name a few.

 

Don't you figure most of the German people figured that any change was good change considering their living conditions at the time? People don't often look beneath the surface of such matters. They were just seeking better lives for themselves and like another poster stated many of them were manipulated or intimidated for that matter.

 

"The German soldier was trained to wage a ruthless war with no pity."

Aren't all effective soldiers trained to fight ruthlessly? Or is it just Gentlemanly Americans who joined the war with cute little Halos over their heads? You yourself said "It is WAR" so then you should know that pity doesn't win wars, not that it didn't exist.


"I respect his skill, but not him. He was a man. Unless he was a psychopath and had no ability to distinguish right from wrong, then he and every other German soldier deserves to be seen as a "bad guy"."

Make up your mind, are you attacking Wittmann the tanker or the Heer?

The 1940s were a very different time then today, do you seriously think that the 17 and 18 year olds conscripted into the army during 1943 and 1944 could have just walked out of their barracks and say "I wont fight for you"? Many young kids and fathers and old men payed the ultimate price because of the two faced leader sitting on his throne in Berlin.

"Their raison d'etre was to expand Germany's borders at the expense of others.They destroye the lives of MILLIONS. They wrecked homes and bodies with equal skill and ferocity."

They are not the first and most certainly not the last to bear responsibility for the above, it appears that you should be angry at a lot more countries than just Germany.

"How can you defend such people???"

Because your type pushes them into the shadows of shame and they wont come to defend themselves.



On a side note, I by no means shed any tears for the dead SS (except for the Brainwashed 12th SS) but its somewhat perturbing when people strike low blows at the Heer which proved themselves that they could too "noble and Gallant" as we like to call ourselves.

 

Shall be keep this thread gentle and on topic or have points been made and should the thread be closed before further personnal attacks are made?

 

The Nazis were known at that for being violent, anti-Semitic, and expansionist. They did take steps to squelch the socialist tendencies in order to win over industrialists, but the Nazis did not change all that much from when they out of power to when they were in power.

That the Germans were downtrodden is not in doubt, but so were Americans. But we didn't reach for some extreme group like Germany and Russia in 1917 did.

Germany was not the only country suffering then, yet they were the only one that gave the reins of power to a extremist group bent on expansion through aggression.Hitler did nothing that he did not lay out in Mein Kampf.

 

get back to the origins of the thread you guys. this was covered in lengthy discussion minus the rambling here Wittmann and his cronies were hit by ? in old armor archiv's of Missing-lynx.com - homepage some 5 years ago.

am backing Skip on this one, enough of the OT discussions

 

Again, no soldier fights for the same cause and you it seems you have once again forgotten about a little thing called conscription. You know, the thing that can bring your army from 10,000 soldiers to millions in a matter of days?

Before the Night of Broken Glass the Nazi Parties in America for instance were accepted, nothing was wrong with them. Afterwards however people started to lose faith and support gradually died out. Even within Germany, peoples feelings were mixed about the party after those events.

You are looking at the party from a modern viewpoint, the genocide (final solution) came later and was mostly for those "in the know".

It seems like you are picking and choosing, I have previously brought up some examples of Nazi intimidation at work to help drive up the vote. Early on the Nazi's despite all they promised for Germany were very unpopular, it was a landslide defeat during their first election was it not?

You could say no to the war if you were a German soldier, but it would most likely end with your commanding officer putting a bullet in your head, not for saying no to the war but for leaving them when it became a fight for survival. When the war was going well perhaps they would have disciplined you for your actions. If you were lucky and escaped your unit, where would you go? It's not like you could have bought a plane ticket back to Germany and expect a normal life to await you. Worst case scenario, the Gestapo find out and they throw you in a concentration camp, assuming they don't kill you first (Pope Benedict XVI ran away at the end of the war and met up with a gestapo man I believe, he didn't say anything to Mr. Ratzinger and that was when he took up the faith believing god had helped him).

Edit: Saw the mod posts after, I'm fine with going back on topic, doesn't look like this discussion is getting anywhere...