I dunno- the damned mullahs are afraid to show thier faces in the streets.. My Persian buddies say they want the bomb and plan to use it.. Most Persians are sick of them, the old women and the youth hate them. Persians like the west and want help, but the western military should stay out, friendship ends at the border. so I have heard
i would like to ask all of you especialy Che_Guevara and AL AMIN that you stop personaly insulting others that don't agree with them. We all have own different opinions here. BTW i'm not a moderator here, so this is just my humble personal request. Name them! And i would like to hear your definition of terrorism. Terrorism in itself is just a tactic born of desperation or a way to keep part of population subdued. My opinion that for us westerns it si realy hard to understand poeple of middle east. By my experiance further you go south the longer the memories are. History and past bad or good experiances are still very strong factor in how ordinary poeple see things. For an example: I was working with someone from Montenegro and he invited me to spend holidays there (2001). It was the time when in SCG Slovenes were not most welcomed (as we opened our airspace for NATO planes for purpose of bombings in 1999). When i pointed that fact to him he answered that Slovenes were always welcome in Montenegro as almost all remember that during their independance war there were a lot of Slovene volunteres. Since i couldn't remember which war he ment, he said that he ment war of independence from Otoman empire (Turks) in 19-th century. BTW he was reservist serving on Podgorica airfield when it was bombed with cluster bombs. BTW which country was first and for quite some time only country to help Northern Alliance in fight against Taliban and Al Quida ( both wer massivly supported by Pakistan) in Afganistan? Which country was among the first to offer to open its airspace to US planes (including combat) before they invaded Afganistan? Answer to both questions is Iran. So how did Bush & co thank them? They start bullshitting about axis of evil. Why becouse Iran is the only regional power that can threaten Israel (missiles, bombers...). Why is Iran on US shit list (axis of evil)? As US was percived by poeple as enemy for their support to shah and his secret police with their nerve center in US ambassy we have that hostage crissis of 1979/80. After revolution that overthrew Shah and ambassy hostage crissis, US tried their best to couse them problems (with little detours like republican hero Ollie North selling them spare parts for F-14's and Phantoms). US suported Iraq invasion of Iran, that is a fact. No matter what Saadam did then US supported him ( including use of chemical warfare on the battlefield and his own civilians) taht is also a fact. Iran fought back by cousing problems to closest US allie in the region (Israel). Good example of that is when Iraqi plane ( i belive it was Mirage F-1 or borrowed Etendard) managed to hit USS Stark with Exocet missile killing areound 50+ US seamen. US shot down Iranian Airbus carrying pilgrims to Meka killing 200+ poeple (BTW this plane was flying on international corridor with aprowed flight plan in broad daylight). As i said in my previous post one has to know some history here. It is not a simple case we good them bad as US politcians (Bush & co) like to simplify. So if you are averege Iranian how would you view the mulahs? Would you chanced with US styled ''democraty'' like that of Reza Pahlavi? As i reccal Iran had democraty (Mosadeq) replaced by US friendly ''democraty'' (Shah Reza Pahlavi) with military cue with US backing. I think that average Iranian will prefer to follow Mulahs for the time beeing than risk another Shah. Change in Iran will have to come from within not by some US backed party or something. In middle east the best way to dicredit someone in eyes of poeple is still allegation that he or his party is US backed. So in final why would Iranians belive US that they will be treated fairly if they canclled their A bomb program. Now Bush confirmed Bolton for UN ambassador, a man that started negotiations with North Korea with speach with around 50 personal insults of their leader, giving them space to manouvre.
a friend of mines son was the weapons officer that shot down that Iranian airliner It was not so simple as you lead us to believe.. saddam 's military was Russian and French supplied The US support of Saddam was extremely short lived.. Russia was still shipping him weapons until 2003..
Who did I insult? I don´t wanna insult any user here on this forum, if I really did that, I´m terrible sorry for that. Regards, Che.
I am a Moderator, and I endorse this. This topic will have to improve the quality of its debate, and lose all racist & personal remarks. Thanks TISO for dragging us back on course and giving a rational counter-argument. Cheers, Ricky.
Elaborate! Please write down US version of that event as i never had chance to read US version of that tragic event. Especialy i'm interested in trancripst of radio conversations betveen US ship and Iranian airliner. As far i can reccal news were almost immediatly squashed. Even in aviation literature of today very little is known about this. For comparison: When in 1984 Soviet Su-15 shot down Korean 747 flying in no flight zone over Kamchatka it was very simple case for Reagan administration. It was also much publicised by Reagan admin. ( famous Reagan appearance on TV, with him presenting much doctored audio conversations of Soviet CAP with their ground control) If you check the international flight maps at the time that was strictly miltary NO FLY zone (shoot first ,then look who you shot down). Su-15 pair (CAP) did their best to warn off and persuade Korean airliner to change direction (all that was requred according to international law including gun fire in front of the plane - Chicago covention with anexes). I read translated transcripts of radio conversations between Su-15 CAP and Soviet ground control (BTW those tapes Reagan presented were doctored - more than 1/2 was missing). BTW with 747 inertial navigation systems ( system is tripled) and radio navigational instruments they had it is impossible to make such navigational error. With strong US backing in UN and in the world community in general. Famous Saadam - Rumsfeld photo was taken after it was known about Iraqi use of Iperit ( mustard gas), Cianid and other gases on the battlefield and against civilians. I've seen effect of Iperit on poeple in my basic training (footage was of Iranian soldiers after Iraqi bombardment). Yeah. From 1980 to 1988 (start and end of first gulf war).
[Edited by Moderator] watch george bush after iraq were goin to start the draft up and then go to iran or Bush will be thrown out of office after he [ruined] the government .
It is not necessary to punctuate every sentence you type with the "F" word :roll: . Out of interest as well Sherman, when I debated with you on the P-51 thread you were apparently Polish, how come you're American now...?
[Edited by Moderator] hey stonewall dont be silly for sure all your iranian friends tell you that the all the people in iran hate the mullahs and everything is [rubbish] now Sure they say such things otherwise they wouldent be in a forgein country but if everything was so rich and cool and like america why did the people made a revolution fact is that the shah was a bad facist torture master like the mullhas . But the faith of the iranian people is deep and strong well the majority and if you dont belive it they will fight till the last stand they allready prooved it in the past they are not fat iraqis that run when the battle begins
TISO, I feel the same exact way. Ever since the fall of the pro US-Shah in Iran the US has felt a deep hatred for the country of Iran, coincedentally, Iran is the world's secound largest oil supplier. Iran has become such a black mark on today's world when in all actuallity they are trying to better themselves politically and economically. A US-led invasion of Iran would disgust me to such an extent that I couldn't even explain. I probably shouldn't have said that but oh well. The youth of Iran is such an assest to the rest of the world because yes, the majority of them are against the government they are subscribed to. The US supported Iraq during the entire 1980-88 conflict but after the Iran-Contra affair they did it on much lower and more classified scale. And to those who don't know, Iraq started the war, and with little to no provacation. This makes the current Iraq war all the more suspicious. Of course not, but I believe if a western nation was to invade Iran, a good number of the youth there would support it. They are tired of the strict limitations of their religion and will most likely take anychance to escape from it. T hat picture of the Iranians weeping and condoling for the victims of 9/11 is a beautiful picture and I wish more people realized that a people can not be judged by the actions and ideology of their government or I'm sure many of us on this website would be bitter enemies.
yeah some juveniles and students are against the goverment but what i trie to tell you is that in an case of a invasion the iranians will stand togheter.
Probably true - nothing has the potential to unite a country like an external agressor and decent propaganda. My Iranian collegue heartily dislikes the current regime. The Revolution kicked off on her 17th birthday, and some guy got his head shot off in her doorway when she was fixing her hair. She remembers that the new leaders declared that women would be free to cover up or not as they saw fit, but within a month issued laws that women must wear the full gown & headpiece (sory, I cannot remember the name of it). But then, she chose to get out, and has not lived there for quite a while... Well, the very fact that there had to be a violent revolution does indicate that not everybody agreed with the change. But seriously, nobody will say that the Shah was perfect. Far from it. America did have a history during the Cold War of propping up any given dictator provided he was anti-Communist. What they will say is that he was less volatile than the Mullahs...
If I may add to this; In 1947 Venezula had its first free democratic elections ever. The party that won was fairly elected and one of its major issues was land reform. Now the US had some oil industry there and saw these land reforms dangerous, so they were deemed communist and the Venezualan government was blacklisted. To stop from losing the oil industry there, the CIA secretly equipped and instruced guerrilla rebels hiding in the mountain. These guerrilla leaders later on took the gov't from the democratic party and Venezuala enjoyed 12 years of a brutal military dictatorship. Of course these types of actions are not limited to the US, every country that has some connection to the outside world has and will continue to do such actions.
Yes because Russia does not export as much as Iran. This is eneivitable because while Russia has many other resources and exports while Iran has only the oil.
In the news there has recently been the news that Iran plans to create it's own oil trading market.(To start in march 2006) They want to compete with other oil bourses, but using a Euro based international oil trading mechanism. This would for the first time give the Euro a firm foothold in the international oil trade, with potentially huge consequences on other sectors. As an observer wrote recently, a "Petroeuro" would be much worse for the Dollar and US economy than an iranian nuke on New York.... Any toughts if this may influence on the iranian question?
