Israel and Palestine

Yes, fundamentalism is a good thing, but nowadays 'fundamentalist' has become a label for 'extremist' (usually 'violent extremist').
:angry:

 

Noticed this on the BBC Website.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3681840.stm

 

I blame the media for that; they tend to be less than precise in their definitions.

 

Anyone who thinks that Isreal has done anything wrong in its dealings with the Palestinians who does not recognize the rights of the Amrenians, Tibetans, and Kurds all of whom have much more compelling claims, did not resort to global terrorism, and unlike the Palestinians were not offered what they wanted four times is a hypocrite.

I find it disgusting how groups that suffered a lot more then the Palestinians like the Kurds and the Armenians who have been offered absoloutly nothing are virtualy ignored by the media, and by politicians while the Palestinians who rejected peace at Camp David and again at Camp Taba have more international support then the groups I mentioned put together.

I feel it is a great injustice that the entire world cares about the rights of a nation that has rejected peace and launched international terrorism against jews around the world, and that whenever I tell people I feel that the Kurds should be given their own state so they will not need to go through another eighty years of genocide from Iraq I am told "We should not mess with the borders of another country"(Borders set up by Britain btw without the Kurds consent) or "They are very uncivilized if they can't live with their Iraqi neighbors any people that divide based on ethnicity are uncivilized"(Although I would like to see them live next to a man that murdered their family or friends, or as the Kurds will likely endure needing to submit to their rule).

The treatment of the Palestinians by the international community compared to the treatment of the Kurds or the Tibetans proves that international terrorism works, and seems to prove it is a good way to solve problems.

Say what you want about poor Palestine and how genocide does is not restricted to destroying peoples culture or lives like the dictionary says, but that definition of genocide has been applied to the Armenians and Kurds for nearly a century and is being applied to the Tibetans.

 

What you say is true, 2ndLegion, but it's an imperfect, wicked world we live in. Of course, I take great comfort in knowing that God will straighten everything out in the end.

 

Well, I guess I´m a hypocrite then. Because I not only fail to, but refuse to see the conflict between Israel and Palestine in such a simplistic and one-sided way as you suggest. It could in fact be argued that the prime example of how well terrorism can work is the state of Israel, but it would be just as futile and as much of a generalisation as to suggest that all Palestines are terrorists.

 

I agree with you entirely, just becauase a few people cause the problems doesn't mean the whole is bad.

Sometimes the terrorists terrorise their own into doing wrong.

 

The problem lies in both sides. Simply put, the conflict lies is both sides mistake. The extremests are the ones that keep the coonflict going. From a suicide bomber blowing himself up in a civilian area to a tank rolling over a child or a sniper blowing the brains out of a schoolgirl.

The moderists in both sides should speak up and try to overcome the extremists (by no means an easy task).




By the way, its nice to see that arabs are generaly viewed , as 'poor bastards' 'unfit to live' primitive if not savage' 'just bloody peasnts' 'Hateful hypocrites' etc. etc. Makes u feel very welcome and urges u too give out flowers

 

How is fundamentalism a good thing? Fundamentalists go back to the origins and earliest works of their religion and stick to them instead of the rules and traditions added later, right?

Fair enough, usually through the centuries a lot of stuff is added that serves only to suit the priests, or justifies what the clerics do. Or they make better followers by procaliming this or that to be the will of God, or Allah, or any other divine being. However, there is a lot of stuff in the oldest origins of any religion that belongs there and there only: with the oldest followers. Stuff that simply no longer applies. It's a changing world; unchanging faith will simply become out of touch with reality. No one respects suicide bombers except those who still believe in fighting the infidels and going to heaven. Let's be glad that there were no Christian fundamentalists who reinvented martyrdom!

Everything that is said nowadays about how the Koran and the Bible are (morally) wrong in this or that aspect, is an accusation only to the fundamentalists; others have sanely done away with such aspects over time because they no longer apply.

 

Roel, just to make a point clear.

The koran and the bible and any other holy book are not outdated with reality, they are till very much aplicable to todys world. The difference lies in the interpretation of those books. Religious zealots tend to misinterpret the words in those books and they apply them in a wrong way. Suicide is not allowed in the Koran and the Bible, and suicide bombing is one of the most misunderstood concepts of todays world. Suicide bombing is allowed only against military targets as a last resort. This is just an example to show you how extemists tend to confuse the issue.

 

Ahh, but when it says you go to heaven if you "die in battle against the infidel" it takes only a little interpretation to make it read "blow yourself up in a crowded place". Of course, I wasn't saying to just throw the whole book away, because it's still the basis of religions; what I meant was that every so often someone points out that to beat up homosexuals is also in the bible, and therefore it is a silly book; this only applies to those fundamentalists who still adhere to every word in the book.

 

All religions advocate the same ideal, namely be good and treat others well. How can anyone with a right mind do something evil in the name of religion when the basic idealogy is to be good?

 

Israel & Palestine

Both sides have monsters among them.People know of the Palestinian gunmen and bombers but who remembers the Stern gang, Menachim Begin, Yitzak Shamir the King David Hotel among other pieces of history.Neither side has clean hands because each side says I AM IN THE RIGHT GOD IS ON MY SIDE and anything I do is allowed.

 

Yes, which for us Christians boils down to:
"love the Lord God with all your body, soul and mind, & Love your neighbour as yourself."
Even you cannot find anything wrong with that, surely!

Example?
I'm sure you will talk up some of the more obscure rules from Leviticus/Deuteronomy. Before you do, remember that these rules were made for the Jewish followers. There are numerous examples of Jesus wandering round telling the Pharasees that they have become too addicted to the rules instead of God. There is even the passage in the NT where God basically says that no food is unfit for consumption.

But even if we were to slavishly follow ever rule laid out (besides those concerned with sacrifice for our sins, which Jesus took the place of, and besides those concerned with food, which were revoked) why would this be out of touch with reality?

Well yes, but change does not mean compromise.

You never heard of the Crusades?
Who do you think gave Muslims the idea for Jihad?
But anyway, Martyrdom is dying for your faith in a way that furthers your faith (by serving as an example. Like dying in someone's place) - not dying for your faith by blowing up small children.

 

Only personal arguments, like how revolted I am by the utter pacifism and therefore impossibility of sticking to this rule, and how this is damn close to slavery anyway. Just ignore it.

Example?[/quote]
I got owned.

I haven't read the bible. People tell me stuff is in there and I can't verify it. You tell me about how the Bible tells good things, others tell me how it brings up the strangest things. I believe there is stuff in there that only applies to older times though. Like a Jewish lady once told me how the Torah requires Jews to scrub a pan with clean sand if pork has touched it. This obviously dates from the time whe the Jews still lived in the desert, and no longer applies today.

Reality is ever-changing, adapting, it doesn't stay the same. Rules in a book do. This is why all books of law have been adapted or replaced over time, this is why constitutions have amendments. Why shouldn't moral laws ever have to change? Differents times had different morals, and from those times the Bible does stem.

I meant no such fundamentalists in modern times. The crusades were a classic example of how Monotheism is the worst kind of religion. :-?

 

Pacifism maybe (although you only have to turn one cheek!)
Slavery?

I don't really see how being nice to people & not sleeping with your wife's mother are bad morals...

Not necessarily - ever heard of the Thuggies (where we get the word 'Thug' from)? A Hindu sect (worshippers of Kali, I believe) who spent their time travelling with merchants as 'fellow travellers', only to murder them by night.
Any religion is only as good as 2 things - the God (or Gods) original commandments, and their interpretation by humans.
The Crusades are a classic example of how adapting God's word to your current political climate (and personal views) is really a bad move.
[/quote]

 

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First off, long ago I posted here that I could never actually tell you my real opinion about Christianity because it wouldn't be taken quite lightly by you or the moderators (even myself). I will not go there now, even though you tempted me to scratch the surface there... :-?

"Love all things and love god and love thy neighbor as thyself" is pacifism, and it is scary to me, because if there is just one person who doesn't agree with this theory then the whole idea collapses. Right now most people don't, and only a few do; only then it is not hazardous, if a bit annoying.

I never said to just throw the whole book away. Some of the morals definitely still apply, others don't. But you had to seek out the most extreme case of where they still do, didn't you. :evil:

 

To get us back on topic, I disagree with those who want to ostracize Israel and punish them for the current situation. I'm not saying that Ariel Sharon is completely right (he's definitely not), but it was the Palestinians and the rest of the Arab world who started the cycle of war and violence in the Middle East back in 1948. Israel hadn't been in existence for one day before the Arabs attacked and tried to destroy the new nation, and most Arabs flatly refuse to recognize Israel's right to exist even today, especially the Palestinians. It must be remembered that when Ehud Barak was the Israeli prime minister, the Palestinians had their nation in the palm of their hand. Yes, there were issues that would have to be ironed out (Jerusalem among them), but the Palestinian state that they publicly claim is their goal was theirs for the taking. All they had to do initially was recognize Israel's right to exist and stop the terrorists from attacking Israel. Did they do this? No, of course not. Why? Because the goal of many, if not most, Palestinians is the total annihilation of Israel and the Jews therein, down to the last man, woman, and child. Knowing that, is it any wonder that the Israeli government has been taking a harder line? Would any nation, faced with such a threat, do things any differently?

 

Corpscasselbury:

I have to disagree with most of what u said, no about Israels right to exist but about how most palestineans are viewed in the world today.

A suicide bomber kills himslef killing 10 civilians, result: outrage!

Thousand palestineans killed by the IDF : result : another bunch of bad guys bight the dust!! :kill:


Tell me, have u seen the photos of the IDF with corpses of civilians palestineans on the news today?


Blaming the conflict on one side is the greatest mistake u can do.

The blame lays squarely on both sides.

 

Unfortunately, for the moment the extremists are becoming stronger among the palestinians as well as among the israelis, making any negociation more and more difficult.