Israel and Palestine

Yes Castelot, its really a sad situation

 

The Israeli's at least have a government that can and will negotiate and then make some effort to abide by the arrangements. The Palestinians don't seem to be capable of that. The IDF does appear to make some effort to at least aim at a target, even if they don't seem to concerned about collateral damage. The Arabs don't seem to care who dies or whose side their own. The goal only seems to be to get pictures on the news to justify further killing.

 

Well, it seems to me that the goal of the Palestinians is pretty obvious: to get and secure an independent Palestinian state on presently Isrealian soil. How can you say they're just randomly killing people?

 

Canambridge, as Roel said, the palastineans have an objective.

As to random aiming, i cant say a sniper blowing the head of a schoolgirl is much of a collateraldamage, it seems to be more dileberate dont u think?

Well, if u were misguided and told u have to fight, what weapons would u use against a country that has all the hardware at its arms?

 

The Palestinians have had several chances to get their homeland. They do not appear to me to be open to compromise or peaceful co-existance. If their goal is the elimination of Israel, then they should expect the same from the Israeli's. ANY sniper deliberately targeting children should be tried for murder. I think the difference is that the Israeli government does not see this as a legimate use of force. I could be wrong, but this is obviously going to a matter of opinion. The Palestinian leadership appears to me to want to maintain an atmosphere of hate and distrust to further their own ambitions.

 

Well, they dont seem to be accomplishing much of trying for murder to me.

Anyways, wether the palestineans want to kill is an important issue but not crtical. As they dont have the capabilities of commiting zit!

Look at the statistics, thousands of palestineans killed each year while around only a hundred in Palestinean homes.

Once again, theres a certain logic behind the palesteneans misguided attempts at killing Israelis. I doubt wether ud stand aside and allow a Native americn to take ur home from u and kick u out of the country and not be crazed for revenge. Im sure ur able to see the logic in what i mean.

Once again, the blame lays squarely in both sides!

 

I totally agree. The killing will only stop when the listening starts.
Don't forget the Israelis feel they have their own historical reasons for wanting a homeland.

 

So do the native americans!

 

P.S. sorry about the grammar and spelling mistakes. I was in a rush.

What i meant before was look how many palestineans died while only a hundred or so Israelis died.

 

Yes, and that is partly my point. The Israeli's seem to be able to avoid killing their own. The terrorists don't seem to care how many of their people die in an attack as long as it gets one Israeli. Hardly enlightened leadership.

 

On the other hand, the Palestinians don't really have anything to defend, only something to conquer, so if they don't win they might as well have died for the cause. Maybe this is their reasoning.

In any case, indeed the first step towards an agreements and peace in the area would be for both sides simply to acknowledge each other. If they don't do this they can and will do anything they want to each other, because they don't feel any rules apply to the enemy. The Palestinians need to acknowledge the Israelian state, the Israelis need to acknowledge the Palestinian people and their claim.

 

Again, you could point out that this is how Israel began. In 1948 the area known as 'Palestine' was split into 'Palestinian' and 'Israeli' chunks - I think according to population. We all know what happened next.
Maybe if the surrounding Arab nations were to acknowledge that their opposition to Israel's very existance, and their refusal to help the Palestinians beyond giving them a patch of ground to live on and some nice weaponry to use has really, really not helped the situation...

It is an interesting irony, that back in the 12th / 13th Century, when Jews were being expelled from most Western European countries (England expelled hers in 1293, I think), the Arab/Muslim world was their sanctuary, and Jews were held in a fair amount of esteem/respect due to their learning.
Now, it has reversed. Jews are hated/feared across the Arab/Muslim world (well, the Middle East, anyway), while in the West they thrive.
Admittedly they are not hugely popular - centuries of anti-Jewish feeling do not just dissolve (and let us not forget the Nazis) - but they do tend (as a stereotype) to be fairly successful and/or wealthy.

Interesting...

 

I will deal with that second.

First the person stating casualties:

18% of the Palestinians killed have been civilians

90% of the Isrealis killed have been civilians.

Included in the Palestinian casualty list are Palestinian collaborators killed by other Palestianians.

Isreal offered what the Palestinians want twice, and right now the Isreali officer who killed the little girl you talked about is facing life in prison. While that does not undo her death it shows that unlike the Palestinians who have showed massive support for Arafat and his terrorist friends, and Isreali who acted like a Hamas guy is being disciplined accordingly. It is not one sided I know, and I know that the Settlements are one of the key barriers to peace. I also know that the Orthadox Jewish Community is made up of war mongers. However the Orthadox community is a very small minority, and they have tried to kill Ariel Sharon for his pledge to pull out of Gaza.

Isreali Soldiers use rubber bullets to reduce Palestinian casualties, normally avoid using their air power because of how many civilians it would kill (Which is not something that can be said about Russia).

Here are some other things to think about.

1.Isreal is the only Middle Eastern Nation were an Arab can sue his government and win, and Arabs have sued the Isreali government and won many times, in 2003 for example a man got his property back after he lost it for helping his terrorist brother get ready for the mission because the court ruled that he had no reason to think his brother was going to abuse his trust. If you want I will get you the details of the case.

2. Isreal has had many more casualties then you said.

3.There have been no IDF attacks that failed, but there have been many failed suicide bombings.

4.On a standardised test for Eigth Graders in Palestine there is this question "Why were the jews hated throughout history?" with this answer "Because everywere they went they caused nothing but trouble and destruction".

5.The Kurds, Armenians, and Tibetens have much more compelling cases then the Palestinians, they did not engage in international terrorism, and they have been offered nothing, and are unlikely to get any offer.

6.The 20% Arab population of Isreal is in a better state then the American black community, or the French Muslim community.

Now as I said I will cover the other thing.

I did not call all Palestinians Terrorists. If you do not fully support the Kurds Armenians and Tibetans with the Palestinians who have rejected exactly what they claim is their goal four times(Peel Commission Report, UN Reccomendation, Camp David, Camp Taba), and have launched terrorist campaigns against jews around the world you are a hypocrite.

Hundreds of Thousands of Kurds killed by Iraqis over the years, they helped us beat Saddam, they ask only for their own state so they won't have to endure it again.

What does the International Community say to them?

They say shove it we have problems to deal with.

Who offered Tibet Statehood on a silver platter?

Edited by Moderator

 

Rise of Wahhabism, the current form of Islam practiced in the Arab World is how it got reversed. Wahhabism teaches that jews christians and non Wahhabi muslims, and everyone else do not have the right to live because they are infidels, and that they can only bring you to hell. It should be noted that Turkey which stuck to it's older form of Sunni Islam is not racist against jews and that the Turks stuck to their traditional acceptance of jews.

 

2nd legion, i suiggest u change ur agressive line of approach and start speaking sense. Honestly i do not know how you can speak about different cultures if your not part of them. To put it straight, wha u say about islam and whabaiism is dead wrong! I cant say to a christain that he want s all infedls to die because that is obviously absurd and secondly i would most logicaly not know their relegion better than them. As for calling me an idiot, those figures u stated are incorrect, the second thing is that as far as civilians go, 18 percent is two hundred times more civilians dead than israeli civilians.

They dont use weaponry? Apaches firing hellfires at random area of cities is not using weaponry against civilians? Its as bad as those suicide bombers blowing up in innocent crowds!


It is people like you that ferment hate that stop the progress of peace worldwide. The ideal way is for both parties to change their extremest views and buid a path to freedom.

Im in contact with a few Israelis and let me tell you that they too want peace. Language of hatred and genocide wont build bridges against longlasting wounds.

Edited by Moderator

 

Sorry DesertWolf, but I cannot see 2nd Legion's fermenting hate. He seems to be highlighting the view that it is the Palestinians who are causing / responsible for the worst of the troubles, and that if they were prepared to compromise slightly, or even to live under Israeli rule (which in some ways is far less restrictive than that of some of it's Arab neighbours), then the fighting would cease.
He also highlights that other ethnic groups in similar positions (Kurds - hated by Turkey/Iraq/Iran, and Tibetans - ousted by China) have chosen a more peaceful route. Which has meant they are ignored, but at least they are not killing people & breeding hatred (on both sides).
Admittedly 2nd Legion appears to have sympathy for the Israeli side over the Palestinian, but people are allowed to have such leanings...

 

You say that Ricky because you havent seen the part of the edited text in which he calls me an idiot, i dont think thats a good way to promote peace dont u think?


Addmittedly i exaggerated in my adressing him as a promoter of racisim but that would not have happened if he hadnt called me an idiot and started rambling deadful wrong facts about issues personal to me, in which he states that my relegion wants to eleminate all infedels. It is clear that that is not true even if some misguided historians would point otherwise.

Inerestingly enough, no matter how much i would prefer not to admitt it :lol: , his views on the kurds are dead right and i support him on that issue all the way.

 

In retrospect, i believe i own 2ndlegion an apology on the way ive labeled him on the previous post. I declined from reading his whole post before writing the message as i thougt he was merely criticizing and being completely onesided but if i had read his complete post then i would have duly noted that not all of it was wrong but most of it actually was pretty insightful.


P.S. That doesnt mean i dont resent u calling me an idiot

 

Correct me if I am wrong DesertWolf but your religion says (in simple terms) that if a muslim kills one innocent person then he is dammed.

If I am correct in my thinking then it is up to the individual to determine in their own mind who is innocent. If this is the case then by siding with the devil it makes it easier for the individual to pass that judgement.

 

Actually, he has seen it. I edited his post too, to make it fit the discussion again, but not to correct him on his language (and therefore not needing the red "Edited" remark).