Israel and Palestine

Sorry the point I'm trying to clarify is, people who give support to the coalition in either physical or informational (joining the security forces or passing on info), could these people be concidered to be non-civilians as they are helping the west and therefore Israel. I realise that you haven't said this is your view but as a Koran scholar I am trying to clarify in my mind how the werrorist justify their actions.

I appreciated that it happens in every religion, and every nation is at some stage to blame for this type of action, and that people of today should talk, discuss and make the world better through understanding and learning from mistakes.

 

Ok GP, i understands ur question now.

Admittedly, its not an easy question to answer.

Here is how we can look at it though:

1) In islam, informants for the enemy are considered traitors, and are therefore the ones which are the most hated. If an insurgent views the informer as working for the US and therefore against him, then he is allowed to kill him.

2) However, if ur in the Iraqi government, then ud view the insurgents as misguided fools who are wrecking the countries economy. And then the informers would be valuable.

There is a catch in all this however. Informers are usually percieved in a very bad light in islam, so they wouldnt be given alot of respect even from the soldiers in the government as they would view them as selling their misguided brothers, the insurgents. This is surprising considering the fact that the informers are helping the soldiers.

 

Thanks.

 

That's a heck of a catch...

 

No problem GP, and yeah, its quite a catch Ricky

 

I understand that we are to find it miraculous that the US gets any help at all from the local population...

I always did think it's wrong to judge squealers. After all, without "squealing", a lot of crime would go unpunished, a lot of warfare would be carried out blindly, and ultimately in cases such as this, people will die because religion forbids people to squeal on one another.

 

It might help the US in Iraq if the media (American and Western as well as Arab) would try telling everyone, once in a while, about the positive things the American troops have done there, instead of reporting just the violence. Restoration of electrical service to much of Iraq, re-opening schools, providing medical care for the local populations, and so on.

Yes, I know that the fighting is going to be the main point of coverage in Iraq, but the world should be told of the other side of the coin. And the whys and wherefores of America's involvement there will no doubt be hotly debated until the cows come home (and quite likely after that, too). But is a more balanced look at what's going on there too much to ask for?

 

Well, that doesnt apply only to Iraq.

A number of things are beig hidden by the media around the world both good and bad.


' Dont give the people the truth, give them what they want to hear.'

 

<b>A new school opened today and 300 children can start their education. </b>

<b>The Yanks blow up the wrong thing again.</b>

<b>British completed another successful patrol without incident.</b>

Which headline makes better news. It is sad but a fact of media. However, personally I agree with you.

 

Thanks, GP; I appreciate that.

 

This was in my e-mail today, and I thought I'd share it with y'all and see what you think. I personally think he makes some very interesting points.


For those who don't know, Dennis Miller is a comedian who has a show called Dennis Miller Live on HBO. He is not Jewish. He recently said the following about the Mideast situation:

"A brief overview of the situation is always valuable, so as a service to
all Americans who still don't get it, I now offer you the story of the
Middle East in just a few paragraphs, which is all you Really need."

Here we go: The Palestinians want their own country. There's just one
thing about that: There are no Palestinians. It's a made up word. Israel was called Palestine for two thousand years. Like "Wiccan," "Palestinian" sounds ancient but is really a modern invention. Before the Israelis won the land in the 1967 war, Gaza was owned by Egypt, the West Bank was owned by Jordan, and there were no Palestinians." As soon as the Jews took over and started growing oranges as big as basketballs, what do you know, say hello to the "Palestinians," weeping for their deep bond with their lost "land" and "nation."


So for the sake of honesty, let's not use the word "Palestinian" any more
to describe these delightful folks, who dance for joy at our deaths until someone points out they're being taped. Instead, let's call them what they are: "Other Arabs Who Can't Accomplish Anything In Life And Would Rather Wrap Themselves In The Seductive Melodrama Of Eternal Struggle And Death."

I know that's a bit unwieldy to expect to see on CNN. How about this, then: "Adjacent Jew-Haters." Okay, so the Adjacent Jew-Haters want their own country. Oops, just one more thing. No, they don't. They could've had their own country any time in the last thirty years, especially two years ago at Camp David. But if you have your own country, you have to have traffic lights and garbage trucks and Chambers of Commerce, and, worse, you actually have to figure out some way to make a living. That's no fun.

No, they want what all the other Jew-Haters in the region want:
Israel. They also want a big pile of dead Jews, of course --that's where
the real fun is but mostly they want Israel. Why? For one thing, trying to
destroy Israel - or "The Zionist Entity" as their textbooks call it -- for
the last fifty years has allowed the rulers of Arab countries to divert the
attention of their own people away from the fact that they're the
blue-ribbon most illiterate, poorest, and tribally backward on God's Earth,
and if you've ever been around God's Earth, you know that's really saying something.

It makes me roll my eyes every time one of our pundits waxes poetic about the great history and culture of the Muslim Mid east. Unless I'm missing something, the Arabs haven't given anything to the world since Algebra, and, by the way, thanks a hell of a lot for that one.

Chew this around and spit it out: Five hundred million Arabs; five Million
Jews. Think of all the Arab countries as a football field, and Israel as a
pack of matches sitting in the middle of it. And now these same folks swear that if Israel gives them half of that pack of matches, everyone will be pals. Really? Wow, what neat news. Hey, but what about the string of wars to obliterate the tiny country and the constant din of rabid blood oaths to drive every Jew into the sea? Oh, that? We were just kidding.

My friend Kevin Rooney made a gorgeous point the other day: Just reverse the Numbers. Imagine five hundred million Jews and five million Arabs. I was stunned at the simple brilliance of it. Can anyone picture the Jews strapping belts of razor blades and dynamite to themselves? Of course not. Or marshaling every fiber and force at their disposal for generations to drive a tiny Arab State into the sea? Nonsense. Or dancing for joy at the murder of innocents? Impossible. Or spreading and believing horrible lies about the Arabs baking their bread with the blood of children?

Disgusting.

No, as you know, left to themselves in a world of peace, the worst Jews
would ever do to people is debate them to death. After September 11th, our president told us and the world he was going to root out all terrorists,
and the countries that supported them. Beautiful.

Then the Israelis, after months and months of having the equivalent of an
Oklahoma City every week (and then every day) start to do the same thing we did, and we tell them to show restraint. If America were being attacked with an Oklahoma City every day, we would all very shortly be screaming for the administration to just be done with it and kill everything south of the Mediterranean and east of the Jordan.

 

Well, I'm glad to see another person willing to show both sides of a conflict. :-?

What would five hundred million Jews do to five million Muslims if the whole thing were the other way around. If numbers were everything here, then obviously, they would leave them alone. However, what would happen if five million Muslims were allowed by two foreign powers to start inhabiting land that is sacred to them (Jerusalem!), or where they have lived for centuries because no foreign power has such rule over them? What if those five million Muslems, on the day the ground was legally divided between Muslems and Jews, were to proclaim their own state without having gained such rights out of the agreement? What if, in the following conflicts, the disunity of the Jews resulted in three staggering defeats inflicted by the enemy? What if in those wars, instead of to acknowlegde the claims of the Jews, the Muslims would take more and more land from them including one of the very few patches that has fresh water sources in it? How deep-felt would their hatred be then? Where would it drive them?

 

Wow, Dennis Miller has just opened my eyes.

I cant see how humans dont banish the evil muslims and lock them up in cages. Theyre just animals that r bloodthirsty and want the end of all the world. Why doesnt the US supply weapons to Israel so that they could rightfully protect their oklahoma city from the ravaneous and babarous arabs that want to kill their children. Why doesnt Israel develop nukes to stabilize the situation in the Middle East. Cant it see that all the arabs are developing weapons of mass destruction to annihlate the world?? Cant the world see that every muslim and arab is a hitler? Hell, even the word islam means war!

And i thought that the word 'genocide' was ectinct. We live in a world where there is no descrimination and racisim. Thats pretty clear for all to see.

Or is it??

 

Problem is that is not the history of the Israel/Palestine conflict.

1.Arabs outside of modern Israel Palestine can not be factored into history as a part of a general arab population because they are primarily Syrian, or Egyptian, or Jordanian, it is like saying all black people in Africa should be counted the same way although being Nigerian or Angolan comes first to them, so please just the people in modern Israel Palestine, not the entire Arab World.

2.The parts of Israel that the Israelis got by partition had jewish majorities which wanted to become Israel, the parts of the land Israel didn't get had a majority Arab population, and, but had a much larger population so the division of land in 1948 was fair and balanced.

3.The only disunity I can think of was from Saudi Arabia, and they still sent troops anyway and they did not hurt the Arab coalitions in any of the Arav-Israeli wars, in 1967 they for a short time halted oil export to try to help the hostile Nasserite Arabs, so saying disunity caused the Arab defeats is not accurate.

4.The 1948 Partition allowed either side to declare independence.

5.Israel captured land in defensive wars that it offered back in return for a permanent peace and recognition of their right to exist. Egypt accepted and got the Sinai back, Jordan accepted but didn't want the West Bank back, Syria rejected peace and got nothing back, Lebbanon was given Unnilateral withdrawal, and the Palestinians were offered everything they are demanding in terms of land apart from 8% of the West Bank (See the Camp David-Taba offers which were both rejected) and was rejected so the Palestinians got nothing. The Israelis recognize and have always recognized the claims of the muslims, they are not the ones who repeatedly invaded the other side without reason, they are not the ones who rejected peace many times, and they are not the ones who rejected the Balfour Declarations. As for that patch of water as you called it in Lebbanon nobody lives there, and the Lebbanese tried to block the flow of water from it to Israel and so lost their rights to it because people in every country have a right to drink water.

What you forget is there is a pan arabic hatred campaign and an islamic hate campaign. Children are tought in school that the jews were hated over the centuries because they always caused harm and trouble and nothing else werever it went, and Al Jazeera openly quote Protocals of the Elders of Zion a tzarist forgery claiming jews control everything in the world.

Not factoring that hate campaign the jews would not hate the muslims.

Roel what you said shows an amazing amount of ignorance, the fact is Israel recognizes and has always recognized the claim of it's enemies and the last peace offer came from Israel and was rejected.

With Arafat's death things are looking good, and negotiations will resume.

However you MUST remember that Abu Mazen (Abas) is trying to get the 2000 Camp David offer back.[/b][/i][/u]

 

Yes offcourse, all arabs are taught to hate Israel and all muslims are taught to hate Jews.

2ndlegion, u show a compete ignorance of islam by ur statements. There is no such thing as islam portraying jews as evil. In fact, they are viewed as the people of the book. The problem with our world right now, is that everyone believes what he wants to believe. I am constantly astounded by the ignorance of many who show no understanding of the real situations. Arab and other alike.

 

I didn't mean to say all arabs, but it is a fact that many Arabs are tought to hate jews.

Abu Mazen the man who will be running for president of the Palestinians conceded that there is a media hate campaign from Arab media, and has agreed to crack down on it.

Such recognition shows that the problem does exist.

Also I am not saying Islam hates jews, I said that I know Islam isn't a racist religion in prior posts.

But there is an Islamic hate campaign going on from many clerics such as Mullah Omar, or the late Bin Bazz, or Ibn Saud, or from Al Queda. I am not saying all muslims, but there is a hate campaign going on. There is also a christian hate campaign going on against black people, and a orthadox jewish hate campaign going on against other jews and other religions.

It doesn't mean all orthadox jews are religious bigots, or all christians are white supremicists however.

As for what I said about Al Jazeera I stand by it, Al Jazeera MUST stop quoting Protocals of the Elders of Zion at once.

I didn't mean Islam hates jews, there is a very high rise of anti-semetism in the French Muslim Community, but when I say that I do not most french muslims hate jews just that a significant number of them do.

Finally if you think the politics is compelling enough to get Arabs in other nations to hate jews without being encouraged to do so visit Taba, I have not met a single person in Taba who hates jews.

 

Just one question, what is so special about the Protocals of Zion that they pose a threat to world peace and AlJazeera has to stop qouting from them?

 

It is from Tsarist Russia, it was invented by the Cossacks as an excuse to start killing the jews of Eastern Europe the thesis statement it makes at the start is that jews are a fundamentally evil race and for the good of mankind must be exterminated.

It teaches that jews are in control of the most of the worlds capital, and that they use it to start wars and cause poverty.

It is a forgery of a meeting of the worlds jewish leaders were they were trying to decide how to better hurt innocent people.

The message it sent caused thousands to take to the streets and in the violence following it's creation tens of thousands of jews were killed or displaced, many fled to Western Europe, Turkey, and the United States.

Quoting it is like quoting Pope Urban II on muslims (Since he claimed muslims eat little children raw and rape 5 year old girls) on the BBC.

I do commend the Independent Arab news sources that tell just facts like the ones in Taba however, and I hope that they cause Al Jazeera's downfall.

Also I have some good news about Iraq.

Senator Schumer has promised to push for the existance of an independent Kurdistan, so there is some hope of the Kurds finally getting what they have deserved for so long.

 

Thats good news for the Kurds.

Ok, i c what u mean by the protocal of Zion. It reminds me of other protocols that differ only in that they target not jews but other relegions.

 

I'm glad we agree on that then, Al Jazeera not quoting it anymore or being removed is as essential as dismantling the settlements because both inspire hatred and thus encourages the war to go on.

I have a question about Islam though that isn't in anyway related to the conflict.

If a muslim is invited to someone's home and is offered something like wine or pork and there is nothing else to eat/drink and rejecting it would be very offensive to the host would it be justified for he/she to eat/drink the forbidden food/drink since Islam teaches muslims to always maintain politeness?

Likewise if a muslim invited someone over to their house and the guest could only eat pig because of a medical condition and it would be rude not to serve he/she anything would it be justified to serve pork?

With judaism the Orthadox says no to both, but the conservatives and reform say yes to both.