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JFK Assassination: What do you think ?

Discussion in 'The Stump' started by 36thID, Nov 24, 2012.

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  1. George Patton

    George Patton Canadian Refugee

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    I'll offer some unsolicited comments: any large target at less than 100 meters is hard to miss with a rifle. Especially when you have a scope on it.
     
  2. Slipdigit

    Slipdigit Good Ol' Boy Staff Member WW2|ORG Editor

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    Here, too.
     
  3. GRW

    GRW Pillboxologist WW2|ORG Editor

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    Well, still unconvinced.
     
  4. Volga Boatman

    Volga Boatman Dishonorably Discharged

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    Ahem.....

    This chapter from Garrison's book, "On The Trail Of The Assassins". Chapter 15....SHELL GAME

    Nearly two years elapsed between Clay Shaw' arrest on March 1 1967, and the beginning of his trial. Our office spent much of that time prosecuting routine local crimes, countering legal maneuvers by Shaw's lawyers, and preparing our case against Shaw. The leads we pursued took us in many directions, some of which had little to do with Shaw. For me, the most facinating research in this latter part of the investigation involvedthe 'cover-up" of the truth about the assassination by law enforcement officials and the media.

    The manipulations of evidence by the Warren Commission and the Dallas Homicide Unit in their investigations of the murder of J.D.Tippit were prime examples. Tippit, of course, was the Dallas police officer who was shot to death approximately half an hour after the assassination. The murder took place across the dry Trinity River from Dallas in the suburb of Oak Park, not too far from where Oswald was boarding at the time. Though the case was never tried, both the Warren Commission and Dallas homicide agreed that the killer, who left the scene with an icy nochalance, flicking waway used shells from his gun, was Lee Oswald.
    This was a useful conclusion. Among other things, it provided the government with a motivation for the assassination. Lee Oswald was a troubled and tempremental young man so violent that he was capable of shooting down a plice officer in cold blood with no provocation; therefore, such a savage madman was also capable of murdering the President for no reason. Or, as one member of the Warren commission rhetorically posed the question and answer; "How do we know that Lee Oswald killed President Kennedy? Because he killed Officer Tippit." Conveniantly the converse also worked: Only a man who had just killed the President and knew he was being humted down would have any reason to shoot a police officer in a quiet suburb at midday.
    The only problem with this scenario was that, as so often before, when I examined the evidence, the damning conclusions about Oswald just did not hold up.
    First of all, given what was known about Oswald's movements, it was highly improbable that he could have been physically present at the time of tippit's murder. According to several eyewitnessesat the scene, Tippit was shot anywhere from 1:06 p.m. to 1:10 p.m. Deputy Sheriff Roger Craig, who was at the book Depository at the time, confirmed this. When he heard the report of Tippit's deathon the radio, he looked at his watch; it was 1:06 p.m. And yet Oswald, it was generally acknowledged, had returned to his rooming house at around 1:00 p.m. He left quickly and Earline Roberts, the houskeeper, observed him standing by the northbound Beckley avenue bus stop at 1:04. The area where Tippit was killed was in the opposite direct- a mile to the south. Using the broadest interpretation of the time element, even if Oswald had changed his mind about the bus and run southward, it was vitually impossible for him to have arrived at the scene before the shooting of the police officer.
    The Warren Commission simply ignored these time anomalies and presented eyewitnesses whose testimony quickly fell apart. Domingo Benavides, who had been closest of all witnesses to the shooting (a few yards), would not identify Oswald as having been there.
    Warren Reynolds, who had seen a gunman running on Jefferson Street, a block from the shooting, did testify that the man he had seen was Oswald. But the circumstances of his testimony were highly suspicious. Reynolds initially had told the F.B.I. that he would "hesitate" to identify Oswald as the running man. Shortly afterwards, Reynolds had been shot in the head in the dark of a car lot basement. After a miraculous recovery in hospital, Reynolds had second thoughts about what he had seen and decided the running man actually was Oswald.
    The inconsequential testimony of these and several other witnesses left Helen Marham as the centerpiece of the government's case against Oswald. As I read Markham's testimony, it occurred to methat few prosecutors ever found themselves with a witness at once so eager to serve their cause and simultaniously so destructive of it.
    While the other witnesses at the scene unanimously agreed that Tippit died instantly, Markham explicitly recalled trying to talk with him for twenty minutes before the ambulance arrived. Despite the Warren commission's lawyers excrutiating attempt to lead her to identification of Lee Oswald ( a fairly tall and skinny young man with thinning light brown hair), she informed Mark Lane, a well known critic of the government's investigation, that Tippit's killer was "stocky" and had "bushy hair". Thereafter, under oath, she denied having done so and only admitted it after hearing a tape recording of the conversation. Then, making matters worse and more confusing for the government, Markham described the killer she saw as having "black hair".
    Before her testimony was completed, Markham raised doubts in the minds of some observers that she was even at the scene of tippit's murder. At least two witnesses did not recall seeing her there.
    Yet, with all that, Markham was the governmment's best witness, the only one who identified Lee Oswald as the killer of Officer tippit. And here is how that identification went before the Warren Commission:

    Mr.BALL: Now when you went into the room you looked these people over, these four men?

    MRS.MARKHAM: Yes sir.

    MR.BALL: Did you recognize anyone in the line-up?

    MRS.MARKHAM: No sir.

    MR.BALL: You did not? Did you see anybody- I have asked you these questions before- did you recognize anybody from their face?

    MRS.MARKHAM: From their face, no.

    MR.BALL: Did you identify anybody in these four people?

    MRS MARKHAM: I didn't know anybody.

    MR.BALL: I know you didn't know anybody, but did anybody in the line-up look like anybody you had seen before?

    MRS.MARKHAM: No, I have never seen none of them before.

    MR.BALL: No one of the four?

    MRS MARKHAM: No one of them.

    MR.BALL: No one of all four?

    MRS MARKHAM: No sir.

    Ultimately, out of desperation, the Commission's attorney had to resort to putting a leading question to his own witness- absolutely inadmissable in any real court- in order to telegraph to the witness what he wanted to hear:

    MR.BALL: You recognized him from his appearance?

    MRS.MARKHAM: I asked- I looked at him. When I saw this man, I wasn't sure, but I had cold chills just run over me.

    This breif exchange constituted the totality of the witness testimony identifying Lee Oswald as Tippit's murderer.




    Volga Boatman....Intermission. I'm just warming up and so is Big Jim. Having disposed of the witnesses above we'll go on to examine other witnesses, before having a look at the evidence. Garrison has virtually won any trial with time anomolies alone, All based on witnesses. You people seem to feel Garrison just makes all this **** up to sell a few books. Well, the rest of us not so pre-programmed will listen and learn from 'Big Jim'....

    INTERMISSION...BACK SOON
     
  5. KodiakBeer

    KodiakBeer Member

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    I know that when I see somebody standing at a bus stop, I immediately note the time and write it down in my journal so if I get called to a trial 5 years later I have a minute to minute timeline of everyone I know. Earline and I are alike in that...
     
  6. Martin Bull

    Martin Bull Acting Wg. Cdr

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    [​IMG]
     
  7. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana Staff Member Patron   WW2|ORG Editor

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    Garrison was a fraud.
     
  8. Volga Boatman

    Volga Boatman Dishonorably Discharged

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    That's the best you can do, Opana?

    I'm laughing already....."Big Jim" has a lot more to say yet on the Tippit murder. Read it and weep....
     
  9. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana Staff Member Patron   WW2|ORG Editor

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    Read it and puke, you mean. I've read enough CT trash in my life.
     
  10. GRW

    GRW Pillboxologist WW2|ORG Editor

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    I'm always amazed how conspiracy theorists accuse everyone else of being 'pre-programmed' if they don't agree. That whooshing noise was your credibility departing at a rapid rate of knots....
     
  11. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana Staff Member Patron   WW2|ORG Editor

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    Passive-aggressive posting is the hallmark of the CTer. They know, deep down, that they're posting crap, so they have to attack when challenged.
     
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  12. Volga Boatman

    Volga Boatman Dishonorably Discharged

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    Opana, I'm the one posting..not criticizing you for anything but a lack of a reply...

    If the Warren Commission had done it's job, the House Select committee on Assassinations would have been unnessesssary, but the facts are that the Warren Commission was such a useless document in a court of law that it was laughed out by the establishment...hence critics like Mark Lane, and officials that don't buy the fiction of the Commission, like garrison.

    If Earl Warren had a watertight case, this thread wouldn't exist.....
     
  13. texson66

    texson66 Ace

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    I have always suspected that LBJ was behind the whole tawdry mess...in history, it's always been the #2 guy who benefits most from an "unexpected" assassination. I have no proof but LBJ's record of ambition to make it to the White House one way or another.
     
  14. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana Staff Member Patron   WW2|ORG Editor

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    Don't confuse politics with reality.
     
  15. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana Staff Member Patron   WW2|ORG Editor

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    The KISS principle would be against you there.
     
  16. texson66

    texson66 Ace

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    LBJ never ever practiced KISS... the more intrigue the better.
     
  17. Volga Boatman

    Volga Boatman Dishonorably Discharged

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    Why does it stick in your craw that anyone can be so bold as to sugesst that the US government can change hands without consulting the people ina plebiscite?

    Are you really that concerned at the fallout? The US government still has many freinds, opana. I'm one of them. and open criticism is something your government was founded on. What you practice is an amazing desire to treast the american citizen as if he or she needs to have everything about their government sqeeky clean. All governments are corrupt to some degree, and in 1963, the United States was no exception.

    That you should beleive it cant be so, based on i'm not sure what, other than an inate desire to push all conspiracy evidence into a corner for the unpatriotic, I've not seen a shred of evidence to support your claim that the Warren Commission came up with the good, prooving beyond doubt that Harvey Oswald was a double murderer.

    Even given that this story, for your social circles, will just not go away any time soon, there are good reasons why the "Crime of the Twentieth Century" still remains unsolved.

    And for the record, so far no sugesstion from your good self has been furnished to solve this. When the guy the government fingers is in doubt, you've got to let the benefit of the doubt take its course, and exonerate Oswald for both murders. It doesn't really interest me who REALLY killed them, or why, why does interest me is the consistent refual to see that Lee Harvey was a bigger patriot than most, and was perfetly willing to serve and die for the country. Most of the people that put him in that position were working for the good ol'US government...not Castro....not the Russians....and not for the Mafia either.

    Oswald should have had his day in court, at least, before the Attorney General. The fact that he was scrubbed out before being allowed this self evident right, that was a crime of itself that spoke volumes for his guilt or innocense. you at least give a man his day in court, so he can explain WHY. but thats just what certain people in Dallas did not want....Lee Harvey Oswald talking to ANYONE.

    And that speaks more than anything else for the culpability of those involved.

    Your highest office in the land, rubbed out in a public execution, while the guy the government fingers is rubbed out as well before he gets to explain himself? And that DOESNT ring alarm bells that something terribly fishy is going on?

    How innocent you are, Mr Pointer....and childlike in your trusting nature of the powers that be.

    Give the critics their day. It's their right. It's also your right to defend the indefensable. But don't ever tell me that what was done was right, or an example of justice that we should all follow.
     
  18. brndirt1

    brndirt1 Saddle Tramp

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    VB, have you ever read the Warren Report? I doubt it, few have. Most let somebody else cherry pick out parts the find suspicious and pass it on to other CTs with exaggerated flare. Jim Garrison, whom you seem to "trust" for some reason, was discharged from the National Guard as mentally unstable, the reason he could get elected as DA in Louisiana was simply political influence. There is an excellent break-down of his extremely flawed book Trail of Assassins in that McCaddams site I sent to you called "fibs, lies and whoppers". Don't rest your argument on that crackpot.

    As to the second hearing, it was held as new evidence became available and J. Edgar was dead. A "cover up" was found, but it was mostly the FBI covering its own a*s at the behest of Hoover. The sound evidence was at first accepted, and then rejected, the single bullet "theory" was proven true, and most of the Warren Report was found to be as accurate as it could be given the obstructionism of the FBI. There was some confusion, I don't deny that, and there are some weird things like JFK's brain not being where it was recorded as being (in the National Archives), and by the time it was found to be not where it was supposed to be, RFK had been assassinated himself. It was RFK who had requested all the autopsy material be moved to that Archive to be held for history. That is more likely to be one of mis-labeling or mis-storage. They (searchers) found the original container that the autopsy material was shipped to the National Archives in, but the all the contents, not just the brain tissue, were not in it. And no note telling where they might have been moved to, or when.

    That is a mystery, but probably more beauracratic incompetence than diabolical.
     
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  19. Volga Boatman

    Volga Boatman Dishonorably Discharged

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    What I'm trying to say is simply this...if you have a counter argument lets hear it.

    Tagging me for being politically incorrect will not prove anything. you gave us witnesses names for the tippit murder, give us more to chew on. I've not insulted anyone, nor have i lost any credibility, other than for not supporting the American government.

    you stated that the ballistics for the tippit murder were sound. I showed you they were far from that. All I got in reply was a complaint about "lacking credability. It history, ol'boy, everyone argues. But, unlike you, I've argued straight from the hip, rather than scoring points for decorum as you seem to want to. Lets see some information. Your first effort was a dud. so give us something that goes bang please. And the flag waving is Ok, cause I'm a flag waver too...

    So, the floor is yours...
     
  20. Slipdigit

    Slipdigit Good Ol' Boy Staff Member WW2|ORG Editor

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    Larry?

    Childlike?

    Trusting nature?

    Whoa Nellie...
     
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