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JFK Assassination: What do you think ?

Discussion in 'The Stump' started by 36thID, Nov 24, 2012.

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  1. Slipdigit

    Slipdigit Good Ol' Boy Staff Member WW2|ORG Editor

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    Why to you persist in referring to him as Rubenstein? His legal surname (and the name he used) was Ruby, in spite of the name he had at birth.
     
  2. lwd

    lwd Ace

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  3. lwd

    lwd Ace

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    Please don't you've made some of the most worthwhile points on this thread. Unfortunatly there are no few CT'ers on the web but some of the point you've made should be useful next time this pops up.
     
  4. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana Staff Member Patron   WW2|ORG Editor

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    Lovely. But a total non sequitur.
     
  5. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana Staff Member Patron   WW2|ORG Editor

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    Because that points up that he was a Jew. No overt racism, of course. Just a little poisoning the well.
     
  6. 36thID

    36thID Member

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    YIPS !! What the hell did I start ?

    My next controversial topic will be:

    What's the proper term ? Soccer or Football....
     
  7. KodiakBeer

    KodiakBeer Member

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    Lots of companies make .38's and they'll all fit in the same revolvers. It only proves Oswald bought two boxes of ammo from different companies, not that a second gun was present.

    There are errors in the Warren Report. It's a voluminous document and it would only be surprising if no errors were found. It's just that errors are not proof of a conspiracy; they're just errors...
     
  8. KodiakBeer

    KodiakBeer Member

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    Volga,

    You keep asking for evidence that debunks your theories and twice I've provided incontrovertible proof that the shots came from behind (from Oswald), yet you ignore that. If the "conspirators" broke the laws of physics I'd like you to tell me how they did that.
     
  9. Biak

    Biak Adjutant Patron  

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    I'll go back to just watching over your shoulders now.

    ps: Gunshot residue was found on Oswald's hands.
     
  10. brndirt1

    brndirt1 Saddle Tramp

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    In 1952, Jim Garrison was relieved of duty in the National Guard. Doctors at the Brooke Army Hospital in Texas diagnosed him as suffering from a "severe and disabling psychoneurosis" which "interfered with his social and professional adjustment to a marked degree." The evaluation further said that Garrison "is considered totally incapacitated from the standpoint of military duty and moderately incapacitated in civilian adaptability," and recommended long-term psychotherapy. See Case Closed, p. 423.

    And as for Jim Garrison’s flights of fancy in his book On The Trail of the Assassins, here is an excellent link that simply blows the man into the weeds as to credibility.

    Goto:

    Jim Garrison Told Numerous Lies in ON THE TRAIL OF THE ASSASSINS
     
  11. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana Staff Member Patron   WW2|ORG Editor

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    VB, the burden of proof is on you, "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." So far, you have none, and reality doesn't need defending.
     
  12. brndirt1

    brndirt1 Saddle Tramp

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    Oswald's revolver, a converted S&W is still in storage at the National Archives. The main reason matching bullet ballistics was so difficult was that it was not a .38 special when manufactured, but converted to that caliber from .38 S&W, and the barrel was cut-down as well for easy concealment.

    Oswald carried mixed manufacture bullets in his pocket when he was arrested, and a mix of manufacture's bullets were in the weapon when he was arrested. Some Remingtons, some Winchester Western, just like the shell casings found at the scene at the very time of Tibbit's shooting. Not days later VB.

    Goto:

    Oswald's Revolver - Awesome Stories
     
  13. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana Staff Member Patron   WW2|ORG Editor

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    He can't hear you.
     
  14. brndirt1

    brndirt1 Saddle Tramp

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    I'm afraid that might be true. When you think about that S&W it is no surprise it was difficult to match up bullet ballistics. A S&W .38 has a barrel ID of .361, while a .38 Special has a barrel interior diameter of .357, and it would be surprising if any lands and grooves made much contact in that 2" barrel. No accuracy of course, but when you shoot somebody in the body/torso at no range very deadly I would think.
     
  15. KodiakBeer

    KodiakBeer Member

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    The common .38 Special of the time was a 158 grain lead round nose (LRN). When fired, soft lead slugs will expand to fit the bore, but being soft lead they also deform a lot when striking the target, so with the forensics of the day you probably wouldn't get any useful info. Also, these old S&W .38's were surplus cop guns made in the 1920's or 30's. The bore was probably pretty worn out by 1963 when converted to .38 Special and re-sold.
     
  16. brndirt1

    brndirt1 Saddle Tramp

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    LHO's S&W was originally one of the .38/200 "victory" models made for Lend Lease to the UK, it was probably not shipped, but converted to .38 Special for sale in the USA. His revolver has a "V" in the prefix of the serial number, which identifies it as one of those S&Ws made in the 38/200 style. Barrel wasn't "worn out", just too big for the .357 projectile of the .38 Special, since it was at the interior diameter of .361, not .357.
     
  17. belasar

    belasar Court Jester Staff Member

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    A while back Volga you asked me to ask my Dallas Sheriff about what he knew. First he is not 'my' Sheriff as Dallas is about a 4 hour drive from my home. Nor is he a 'Sheriff' as the Dallas Police Dept. has a Chief of Police as its top cop. The current gentleman, David Brown, seems to be about my age (based on his bio photo) so at the time of Kennedy's death he like me would have been a toddler. Granted he could have been in one of the pram's as part of the crowd, but his view could not have been better than any other witness there. One last point about Chief Brown, he is of African decent so highly unlikely to be on the memo list of the vast Redneck conspiracy headquartered in Dallas as you suggest.

    You imply that we on the forum exhalt Jack Ruby as some kind of patriot or hero. I can't find any statement by us to this effect. Ruby in many ways was as sad and pathetic as Oswald. Yes he was a minor hood, but just that. He could have motives that mirrored Oswald's, a desire to become famous for committing some grand public act. His public statements do support this. Nor is it so strange that he could get access to the site of Oswald's shooting. Look at the pictures of the shooting, looks like there are a couple dozen people milling about with microphones and camera's.

    Today to enter my sleepy little county courthouse I have to cross through a metal detector under the gaze of a deputy sheriff, but then America was a different, more trusting country. 9-11 and Oklahoma City has transformed us into a completely different landscape. Back then police officer's did not wear body armor, so they had little reason to think a perp would need one, even one as notorious as Oswald.

    You state that we must accept both Oswald as a patsy and Garrison as a hero because the spent time in the US military. Forgive me but such logic is juvenile. First their less than honorable separations of service is telling in themselves. If you are still un-convinced consider the following.

    Jeffery McDonald, Captain, US Army, Doctor and Green Beret convicted of the brutal murders of his pregnant wife and two small children. I say brutal as each was stabbed a dozen or more times each.

    Tim McVeigh, Terry Nichols and Michael Fortier, US Army conspired to blow up the Oklahoma Federal Building, killing 168 people and wounding 800 more. Many small children in the buildings day care center.

    Charles Witman, USMC, killed 16 and wounded 32 others from the tower at the University of Texas. Two of the killed was a pregnant mother and her unborn child.

    Service in the US armed forces is not an automatic elevation to sainthood.

    Your argument seems to be that LBJ perpetrated a political execution of a sitting president to elevate himself to the same position. Further that he employed elements of the Mafia to commit and cover up the deed.

    Opana's KISS Principle (Keep It Simple Stupid) and Occam's Razor ( other things being equal, simple explanations is better than complex ones) work against this.

    Consider,

    LBJ would have to had planned and organized this under the gaze of his own Secret Service detail. Not impossible, but not an easy task.

    He would have to have found a way to interact with the Mafia to commit the deed and remove the evidence. Again not impossible but a level of difficulty greater as the Mafia was under the intense scrutiny of RFK's Justice Dept.

    He would need to maintain the cover-up under the even more watchfull gaze of both the Secret Service and RFK's Justice Dept. At this point they would have been hyper-vigilent in matters of Presidential security. In the 50 years since the event no insider has come forward with credible, hard evidence that the conspiracy existed. This would be a first in American political scandals.

    Watergate was small potatoes compared to this, but began to unravel almost as soon as it happend and they did not outsource it to uncontrollable third party.

    Motive is also problematic.

    Yes LBJ wanted to be President, all who reached the political level he did wish it. But to choose to murder a sitting President is simply too hard to swallow. If caught his actions would not simply be criminal it would be treasonous. A Death Penalty case and the ultimate humilation for a political player.

    More to the point such a course was overkill (excuse the pun) as he had at least two options he could use that not only did not involve treason, but were completely leagal. He could have exposed either his dalliance's with a variety of women (including a mistress of a Mafioso) or his borderline addiction to pain killers. Humiliating Jackie or the thought that a pill popper had control of the nuclear arsenal so soon after the Cuban Missie Crisis might have been enough to force him out of office.

    The worse fate possible to LBJ is for JFK to demand his resignation.

    If he killed Kennedy to gain the presidency, then for what purpose? He continued Kennedy's policies and most of his appointments. No radical change in either domestic or foreign policy. If he killed Kennedy simply to gain power, then how can we explain his choice not to run for a third term which he could have. Yes he was unpopular, but would any man committed to a treasonous murder of his predecessor, so easily surrender that very power? Wouldn't he try to fix the election, assassinate his rival or declare some emergency that prevented his giving up power?

    The Mafia's motives are equally murky.

    The mafia had a standing rule not to target either law enforcement or their families. If they wouldn't kill a beat cop or District Attorney, how do they go all the way to killing the most prominent member of the US Government? Had the Dallas mafia 'gone rogue' the other families would have come down and cleaned house simply to ensure they were never connected to this most heinous act.

    If they did conspire with LBJ, what did they get for thier trouble? Certainly not Cuba, nor the removal of RFK. If they got bupkis, then why did they not expose LBJ who cheated them. Or why didn't they sanction him as they did JFK? He died in his own bed of natural causes.

    At some point some mafioso would need to make a deal to avoid prosecution, yet none ever did. This would have been the ultimate card to play, yet never played.

    Consider me deluded and brain washed
    if you must, but the theory has too many moving parts to not leave hard evidence rather than a handful of obscure anomalies.

     
    GRW, TD-Tommy776, A-58 and 3 others like this.
  18. KodiakBeer

    KodiakBeer Member

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    I've reloaded a lot for various antique weapons and even cast my own bullets for many of them. Even jacketed bullets will expand enough to fit the bore of oversized weapons, for example you can shoot British .303 slugs out of a .308 rifle with reasonable accuracy (the slug will expand enough to engage the rifling). The same is true of US .308 and Russian .311 slugs - you can reload your Mosin Nagant with slugs for .308/30.06 and they'll shoot just fine. You can even shoot .303 slugs in a Russian .311 bore and they'll still engage the rifling. Accuracy is degraded, but they won't keyhole as long as the length/weight of the slug is appropriate for the twist of the rifling.

    With lead slugs the difference in bore size will matter very little. Lead (being very soft) will expand to fit a bore size much greater than the slug itself. Yet, lead (being very soft...) will also greatly deform upon contact erasing much of the land/groove patterns.
     
  19. brndirt1

    brndirt1 Saddle Tramp

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    The problem here "KodiakBeer" isn't so much the difference between the 0.004 diameter difference between the barrel and the cylinder, but the sloppy way the "Victory" models were adapted to the .38 Special. The cylinder would be "reamed out" in length to accept the greater length of the .38 special case, but no other modifications made at the time. Ideally the cylinder and barrel should have been replaced on the Model 10 S&W "Victory" frame, but that wasn't done. Oswald may have discovered that loading more than four rounds of .38 special would make the extractor function in-operative in this poorly re-chambered weapon.

    In this case, four .38 special rounds could be fired and extracted without problems, but perhaps five or six would expand (balloon) to such and extent that the shell casings couldn't be extracted without effort. All the shell casing sound at the Tibbit's murder scene show that "ballooning" effect. And BTW, Volga Boatman, the Model 10 double action revolver will leave extrator markings on the ejected cases especially if they are held in place by friction produced by the ballooning.

    Yes, they can be fired through less than ideal conditions, but the ballistics will be less than ideal for forensic testing, especially at the time. Oswald's S&W was one of those cheaper than dirt modifications, and with a "chopped" barrel even less likely to have the identifying markers needed to make it "to the exclusion of all others".

    I too have reloaded, cast my own bullets (mostly for muzzle loaders), and know there is a sort of "fudge" factor, but when a guy buys a box of bullets in the sixties, he must assume that those are for "his" pistol, the fact that they really aren't isn't Oswald's fault, but the cheap-0 gun seller who unloaded the re-chambered .38/200 on the public.
     
  20. KodiakBeer

    KodiakBeer Member

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    There are a lot of old pistols around like that. A lot of .455 Webley's were rechambered for .45 auto rim (or .45 auto with moon clips), and .38/200 Webley's rechambered for .38 Special, and of course older S&W .38's like Oswald's.

    I just looked into one of my manuals and see that the brass case for the old S&W .38 (.38/200) is .386 in width, while the .38 Special is .375 in width, so yes, a .38 Special fired in a .38 S&W chamber should balloon enough to be distinctive. The rims are the same, but the brass on the older cartridge is slightly larger in diameter.
     
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