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John T. Flynn blames Pearl Harbor catastrophe on FDR

Discussion in 'Pearl Harbor' started by DogFather, Sep 14, 2010.

  1. Falcon Jun

    Falcon Jun Ace

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    Opana, thanks for elaborating on the message that didn't arrive on time.
    For me, what happened at PH was the culmination of small unintended errors and misjudgments. Unfortunately, those who are engaged in Monday morning quarterbacking often forget to put themselves in the shoes of the folks of the era that is being bashed.
     
  2. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana Staff Member WW2|ORG Editor

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    Mistakes Were Made, But Not By Me. :D (Good book, btw.)
     
  3. Takao

    Takao Ace

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    DogFather,

    I would kindly suggest that you do some research on your topic. Please see Norman Friedman's "U.S. Battleships: An Illustrated Design History" for detailed information regarding the reconstruction of US battleships.

    The battleships were as ready for war as they were going to be. If you look at all the other battleships of the time, you will find that they are ALL, with the possible exception of the USS North Carolina class, deficient when it comes to anti-aircraft artillery. Even the modern Yamato, Bismarck, King George V, and the Vittorio Veneto classes possessed inadequate numbers of AA guns to fight off a massed attack of aircraft. Not to mention the fact that there were no guns that could reliably stop a divebomber once it entered into its dive. Also, they advent of reliable attack aircraft was relatively recent, thus good AA weaponry was really, at the time, only in the developmental stage. So, by bemoaning the fact that the US battleships were not ready for war is a not only misleading, but a gross misstatement. They were as ready for war as any other nations battleships.

    While it is true that planning to update all the American battleships with the twin 5-inch/38 mounts was begun in March, 1940, with the proposal from the King Board, and later expanded upon in 1941. The excessive yard time needed to complete the reconstruction of the battleships, the funding available, the material available, and the worsening situation in the Pacific prevented the battleship reconstructions from taking place. It is rather hard to upgrade the battleships if the guns are not ready to be mounted.


    Tell the truth now DogFather! That was only ONE of many concerns put forward by Admiral Richardson. Here is a partial list:
    1. The lack of advance bases in the Pacific for the fleet.
    2. Slow pace of upgrading the Pacific fleet's warships.
    3. Shortages of ammunition.
    4. Shortages of fuel.
    5. Shortages of spare parts & essential supplies.
    6. Lack of support ships for the fleet.
    7. Lack of trained personnel to man the warships.

    Not to detract from Admiral Richardson, But he reminds me of General George B. McClellan always pleading to Lincoln for more men, supplies, etc. instead of fighting with what he had.


    One could also say that Richardson's heavy handed attempt to persuade Roosevelt bordered on, if not was, insubbordination. Like Lincoln, FDR was looking for someone willing to fight and who was not always protesting orders, but obeying them.
     
    CAC likes this.
  4. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana Staff Member WW2|ORG Editor

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    Richardson also testified that he never seriously considered there would an enemy attack on Pearl Harbor. He was clear that it was NOT one of his concerns at the time.
     
  5. Takao

    Takao Ace

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    Even if the telegram had been marked urgent would it have gotten to Pearl on time.

    Clausen's timeline
    1. Message was filed at in army message center, DC at 6:31 AM Hawaii time.
    2. Western Union, DC, teletype completed at 6:47 AM Hawaii time.
    3. Message received by RCA, Honolulu at 7:33 AM Hawaii time.
    4. Teletype to Fort Shafter not operating at dawn Sunday morning, bicycle messenger sent. Caught in air raid seeks shelter until 11:45 AM.
     
  6. DogFather

    DogFather Member

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    I believe Richardson, chose to participate in the post Pearl Harbor disaster
    cover-up, because our nation was at war. When the war ended, FDR
    was dead, and there was no reason, at that point in time, to have FDR's
    mistakes come to light. Consider how dangerous, the Axis powers, turned out to be. It was a case, where the ends did justify the means. The Axis
    had to be stopped. I have a feeling, info on the death camps and all that,
    had begun reaching FDR and his admin. So, he did what he had to do.

    FDR made a foreign policy decision, to confront Axis aggression. One result
    was the Pearl Harbor attack.

    Adm Richardson, comes clean, in his autobiography. Were he admits to being less than completely honest in all those hearings, after the PH disaster. Which he wrote in the late 50s, but was not published, until
    1974, after the death of adm Stark. Richardson was also very critical of Stark.

    THE MINORITY PEARL HARBOR REPORT, also reaches, some of the same
    conclusions, that I did. After reading about Richardson, Nimitz, Roosevelt,
    and a few others.
     
  7. lwd

    lwd Ace

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    Or you are simply trying to interpret it so as not to break your theory.
    So he lied under oath but was honest when it was likely to earn him an extra buck or two. I suspect you do the man a disservice. However you take it if he did indeed recant it rather brings to question anything he said. On the otherhand exactly what did he "come clean" about? Perhaps it's another case of you pulling something out of context.
     
  8. DogFather

    DogFather Member

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    I honestly believe, Richardson, wanted the truth to come out, for the
    sake of accurate history. Richardson died in 1974. A little late to use
    any money, he would get from a book.

    I'm not sure what the issue is anyway. Does anyone think, or have I said,
    FDR should not have confronted Nazi aggression?

    FDR made some mistakes, just like other presidents did. There is nothing
    radical about my views.
     
  9. LRusso216

    LRusso216 Graybeard Staff Member

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    It's a long stretch from "FDR made mistakes" to putting the blame for Pearl Harbor on him. Roosevelt always felt that the war against Germany was a top priority, but I don't see how that leads him to allowing Pearl Harbor to be vulnerable to attack. In order for that to be so, the conspiracy would have to be so vast as to be unimaginable. It seems to me that nothing that is pointed out that contradicts your position is ever going to be enough to convince you. You can find any number of CTers (like Stinnett and Flynn) who will support your views by cherry picking facts and weaving a whole new theory from them. Flynn seems even more out there than other things I've seen.
     
    mikebatzel, ULITHI and brndirt1 like this.
  10. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana Staff Member WW2|ORG Editor

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    Lovely, DogFather. You now say Richardson was lying? Go tell his family that, please.
     
  11. ULITHI

    ULITHI Ace

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    I can't wait to hear who lied next for the "greater good"!

    But wait, don't CT'ers also believe FDR wanted us in the war to help the Jews and Zionists in global domination? They need to get their stories straight!
     
  12. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana Staff Member WW2|ORG Editor

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    He had plenty of chances, and he told the story as it happened. Calling him a liar is skating very close to the edge, DogFather, very very close.
     
  13. DogFather

    DogFather Member

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    I don't see how Jews and Zionism, get into to all this. The concern was,
    that if the British Fleet, was to fall into Axis hands. This could be a threat
    to the United States and Canada. It would certainly be an end to trade.

    This is the threat, FDR and his admin, confronted. Along with simular
    threats to our Asian trading partners. This was a legitimate concern.
    Some in FDR's admin, wanted to do more sooner. But FDR had boxed
    himself in, because of campaign promises. Where is the CT?

    My understanding is, our military, made contingency plans. In case the
    Brits were knocked out of the war. Same for the Russians. Nazi Germany
    was a threat to the whole world.
     
  14. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana Staff Member WW2|ORG Editor

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    DogFather, you are literally coming apart there. Please try to be coherent with your responses.
     
  15. DogFather

    DogFather Member

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    The blame comes from, putting too many high value military assets, in a
    harbor, that's hard to defend. Then keeping the fleet, at Pearl Harbor,
    even when warned, by the adm, in command of that fleet, that it's not
    a good idea.

    The 2 Ocean Navy, ship and plane, building was well under way. Those
    new naval assets, were going to be ready for war. In my view, we should
    have played defence, in the Pacific. Until we were ready to take on the
    Japanese.
     
  16. Takao

    Takao Ace

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    I would disagree with LRusso216 on one point. Flynn was not a CTer, he was part of the "FDR is/was Satan incarnate" crowd. Reading through "The Final Secret of Pearl Harbor" it is always Roosevelt, Roosevelt, Roosevelt, with little mention of anyone else. Whatever Roosevelt did or did not do, acts of commission or omission, was damnably wrong and must be excoriated.
     
  17. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana Staff Member WW2|ORG Editor

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    DogFather, you're view should be supported by some serious study on the subject if you want it to be worth anything. Simply running in here and posting conspiracy theories doesn't make you credible.

    Now, you're running out of thread here. Post wisely.
     
  18. brndirt1

    brndirt1 Saddle Tramp

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    Or on the other hand this could be seen as a totally rational way to make sure that if the USN was attacked without a declaration of war, the ships would be in shallow water, easily repaired and returned to service. As most were historically.
     
  19. Takao

    Takao Ace

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    Pearl Harbor was a very defensible position. It was surrounded by 5 RADAR sites that could provide advanced warning of approaching enemies. It was surrounded by several airfields with fighter aircraft to defend the harbor. There were tens of thousands of troops to defend the island. There were Army AA guns aplenty to fight of air attack.

    However, the RADAR sets only operated 3 hours a day, even thought the USN was not flying recon flights like they were supposed to. The fighters were not flying a morning CAP. The troops were being utilized to prevent sabotage. And the AA guns, for the most part, were not emplaced. To top it all off the important anti-torpedo nets were not used because it was too time consuming to move them out of the way when the fleet wanted to sortie.


    Ummm, did not many Admirals tell Yamamoto that attacking Pearl Harbor was not a good idea because it would never work. IIRC, one of the most vocal against Pearl Harbor, Nagumo, was put in command of the fleet sent to attack Pearl Harbor. So, just because there is one naysayer does not necessarily mean the thing is a bad idea.


    I hate to say this, but "Really genius?" You're just going to "roll over and play dead," while the Japanese run amok all over the Pacific. I'm glad you were not in charge of the Pacific Fleet during World War II. At least Kimmel had a plan for attacking the Japanese once the war started. Shame he did not have a plan for defending the fleet at Pearl Harbor.
     
  20. nevarinemex

    nevarinemex Member

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    Again, Adm Kimmel is responsible for what happened to his Fleet. However,
    Adm Bloch is the one tasked with the defense of the Fleet while in harbor.
    If Adm Kimmel's plans to take the war to the Japanese evolved from similar brainstorming lines as the Fleet's defense, then Heaven Help Us.
     

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