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Ju-390 long range bomber

Discussion in 'Axis Bomber Planes' started by Class of '42, Apr 29, 2020.

  1. CAC

    CAC Ace of Spades

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    Flying at night and at height would be the best defence...rear and a couple of guns under the fuselage would be my design. Speed could be important too...let’s not forget the possibility of jet bombers...and the advent of substantial underwing fuel tanks.
     
  2. Class of '42

    Class of '42 Active Member

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    Since how desperate and fanatical the Germans were by '44...why not just ask for some volunteers for a one-way mission to NYC..forget the heavy armor and guns and a return trip..pack it full of fuel and explosives...come in under radar and crash into the Empire State building...which is probably the most famous icon outside the State of Liberty. Sure this is all "what if" speculation but makes for an interesting concept or for some movie script...lots of great comments in here.
     
  3. Kai-Petri

    Kai-Petri Kenraali

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    Hajo Herrman suggested fighter pilots to make suicide attacks against Allied bombers. Not impossible to think a suicide bombing mission either I think.
     
  4. harolds

    harolds Member

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    I'm sure you'd get some takers! Plenty of young recruits signed up for a unit to ram bombers! Oh yes, and also to man suicide V-1s.
     
  5. Takao

    Takao Ace

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    As always, weight is a tradeoff - a plane can only carry so much weight. More fuel, even in drop tanks, means less bombs can be carried.
     
  6. Carronade

    Carronade Ace

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    The main advantage of drop tanks is - that you can drop them - when you need to be able to maneuver. At that point you should hope you have the fuel you need to complete your mission - air combat, bombing, whatever - and get home.
     
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  7. harolds

    harolds Member

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    The real problem with weight is in taking off...or not, as the case may be. More than a few B-17s didn't get too far past the end of the runway. That's one of the advantages of A2A refueling, you don't have to take off with your tanks topped. Just top them off when you're already in the air and going fast enough to have plenty of lift! Perhaps the crew of the tanker will check your oil and wash the windshield!
     
  8. belasar

    belasar Court Jester

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    A sustained effort was impossible, even if a first raid got lucky and timed their strike to hit after dark, but if Germany saw this as a reverse Doolittle raid as a propaganda raid that might force the US to redeploy assets to the mainland USA it might be worth a squadron of planes from the German perspective.
     
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  9. harolds

    harolds Member

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    I essentially agree with you that a sustained effort over time would be impossible, if nothing else because the fuel demands would be prohibitive. Luck would also play a big part, especially in keeping Allied intelligence in the dark.
    Where I disagree is the idea that random bombing would be beneficial to the Germans. We could shrug off a few buildings being knocked down but the destruction or damage to the port, docks shipping, the naval yard, chemical plants etc. would force the USA to take the threat seriously enough to redeploy forces. That would necessitate hitting in daylight. [Edit: Or, if at night, do it like the Germans did in Barisi(?), Italy and use flares to ensure bombing accuracy.]
     
  10. Class of '42

    Class of '42 Active Member

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    If there was to be air raids to the U.S. East Coast...most likely it would of involved the secret Kampfgeschwader 200 under Oberst Werner Baumbach.

    The Luftwaffe's Secret KG 200
     
  11. Kai-Petri

    Kai-Petri Kenraali

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    Like previously mentioned Germans had plans to send subs with at least v-1 flying bombs,too. V2 would be too far to send in the close of NY, NY. Ideas? Other read about these? Kph
     
  12. belasar

    belasar Court Jester

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    I compare this to the Doolittle raid for a reason. It was/would be a propaganda stunt. Doolittle accomplished almost nothing of physical value with the loss of all aircraft. It could have cost Enterprise, Hornet and their escorts as well. All for a publicity stunt to raise domestic morale. This could be true for Germany whose cities were being turned to rubble.
     
  13. Kai-Petri

    Kai-Petri Kenraali

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    Hitler had only one thing on his mind: revenge. Even late in war he sent his bombers to bomb the UK when they would be useful elsewhere. He did not think of defence. He also sent night fighters against the Allied day bombers and Lost them, too.
     
  14. Deiter.Wolfgang

    Deiter.Wolfgang New Member

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    Sorry to disappoint you Class of '42, but the RLM dismissed the Ju390 as a bomber when the V3 prototype failed static wing load tests in June 1944. Wings were not too weak to perform the flight but the plan was to carry three bomb warheads in three Me 328 parasite fighters with self sacrifice pilots Carrying two slung under outboard wings, the Ju390 could not support the weight of these Me328 aircraft.


    The Ju390 would never have been the Amerika bomber

    [​IMG]


    I do not doubt the Ju390 was a very capable long range transporter.

    Hitler wrote in 1928 of his ambition to destroy USA in the manuscript of a book not published until 1961.
    in fact the Messerschmitt Me264 was always intended to be the Amerika bomber from the start. It was too underpowered. to safely get off the runway with full payload and full fuel, however as an indication how serious Hitler was, the project to develop this America bomber began in 1937

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2022
  15. Deiter.Wolfgang

    Deiter.Wolfgang New Member

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    Baumgart was the POW source.

    Unteroffizer Wolf Baumgart, was interrogated by the US Ninth Air Force and his testimony was recorded by the A.P.W.I.U. Report 44/1945. In that report Baumgart is quoted claiming that a Ju-390 flew from Mont de Marsan, France, to within 12 miles of New York city. He further stated that photographs were taken of the city's skyline. The same A.P.I.W.U report also references corroboration by a more senior Luftwaffe officer, who added that the Ju-390 had an in-flight endurance of 32 hours.

    Ju390 Test pilot Hans Werner Lerche later disclosed postwar that the Ju-390 was not unpleasant to fly however it could not be flown too fast or turned too quickly otherwise it had a flutter problem. He said it was very stable and slow flying aircraft., Flying about 186 KIAS at 6,300 ft Altitude.Fuel burn trippled above 21,000ft.
     
  16. CAC

    CAC Ace of Spades

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    WIKI -

    New York flight
    The first public mention of an alleged flight of a Ju 390 to North America appeared in a letter published in the November 1955 issue of the British magazine RAF Flying Review, of which aviation writer William Green was an editor. The magazine's editors were skeptical of the claim, which asserted that two Ju 390s had made the flight and that it included a one-hour stay over New York City. In March 1956, the Review published a letter from an RAF officer which claimed to clarify the account. According to Green's reporting, in June 1944, Allied Intelligence had learned from prisoner interrogations that a Ju 390 had been delivered in January 1944 to Fernaufklärungsgruppe 5, based at Mont-de-Marsan near Bordeaux and that it had completed a 32-hour reconnaissance flight to within 19 km (12 mi) of the U.S. coast, north of New York City.[1][14] This was rejected just after the war by British authorities.[15] Aviation historian Dr. Kenneth P. Werrell states that the story of the flight originated in General Report on Aircraft Engines and Aircraft Equipment, two British intelligence reports from August 1944, which were based in part on the interrogation of prisoners. The reports claimed that the Ju 390 had taken photographs of the coast of Long Island but no photos or other evidence for the existence of such photos has ever been found.[13]

    The claimed flight was mentioned in many books following the RAF Flying Review account, including Green's respected Warplanes of the Second World War (1968) and Warplanes of the Third Reich (1970) but without ever citing reliable sources. Further authors then cited Green's books as their source for the claimed flight. Green told Kenneth P. Werrell many years later that he no longer placed much credence in the flight.[16] Werrell later examined the data regarding the range of the Ju 390 and concluded that although a great circle round trip from France to St. Johns, Newfoundland was possible, adding another 3,830 km (2,380 mi) for a round trip from St. Johns to Long Island made the flight "most unlikely".[17]

    Karl Kössler and Günter Ott, in their book Die großen Dessauer: Junkers Ju 89, 90, 290, 390. Die Geschichte einer Flugzeugfamilie (The Big Dessauers... History of an Aircraft Family), also examined the claimed flight and debunked the flight north of New York. Assuming there was only one aircraft in existence, Kössler and Ott note it was nowhere near France at the time when the flight was supposed to have taken place. According to Pancherz' logbook, the Ju 390 V1 was brought to Prague on 26 November 1943. While there, it took part in test flights which continued until late March 1944.[6] They also assert that the Ju 390 V1 prototype was unlikely to have been capable of taking off with the fuel load necessary for a flight of such duration due to strength concerns over its modified structure; it would have required a takeoff weight of 65 t (72 short tons), while the maximum takeoff weight during its trials had been 34 t (37 short tons). Another explanation for this is that prototypes are never flown at maximum gross weight for their maiden flight until testing can determine the aircraft's handling. According to Kössler and Ott, the Ju 390 V2 could not have made the US flight either, since they indicate that it was not completed before September/October 1944.[6]
     
  17. Deiter.Wolfgang

    Deiter.Wolfgang New Member

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    Yes the standard V-2/ A4 had much too little range which is why the A8 rocket powered by diesel with Nitric acid was designed specifically for the New York mission with Lafferentz capsules.
     
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  18. Deiter.Wolfgang

    Deiter.Wolfgang New Member

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    [​IMG]

    On the contrary, Aussie Merchant seaman Ron Whylie photographed the Ju390, stkz RC+DA in December 1942 when his convoy KMF-5 came under air attack. When I contacted Ron in 2008, he had no idea what the Ju390 was?
    This almost certainly makes RC+DA the V1 prototype.
    The V1 aircraft was parked and abandoned at Dessau in October 1944.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2022
  19. R Leonard

    R Leonard Member

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    The Ju390V1 first flew at Dessau on 20 October '43 - so . . . how it was photographed in December of 1942. Is there a reasonable explanation other than secret Nazi time travel?

    So, Deiter, are you any relation to Simon "the wehraboo" Gunson and his super-dooper weapons pages and/or his claims, under various guises, thereof in various other forums? Or do you just copy-paste without really reading?
     
  20. RichTO90

    RichTO90 Well-Known Member

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    More likely he's related to Gert Heumann who created the fake years ago.
     
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