Discussion in 'Axis Bomber Planes' started by Class of '42, Apr 29, 2020.
Yup, then you claim Aussie "Ron Whylie" took the photo from SS Cameronia and make up a story of contacting "Ron" for conformation, but he didn't remember much...
I HOPE YOU
"I try to be the man my dog thinks i am.."
Please tell your dog this is nothing personal , but somebody has to debunk Kössler and Ott,
Kössler and Ott are not the impeccable sources your dog thinks they are:
Kössler and Ott said;
the Ju390 was not completed until June 1944 / Fact RLM canceled all Ju390 contracts May 1944.
Ju390 was not flying until late September 1944/ yet it was delivered to 4/Fernaufklärungsgruppe 5,January 1944
Ju390 was not flying until late September /yet Ju390 Chief Test pilot Pancherz revealed he made a test flight from Germany to Cape Town in early 1944. in an article which appeared in the "Daily Telegraph" in 1969 titled 'Lone Bomber Raid on New York Planned by Hitler' (before anybody wets their panties Pancherz called it the Amerika bomber, not me)
Kossler and Ott's authoritative book on the Ju390 asserts the Ju390 first flew September’44 after (they claim) it was completed June 1944. / yet there is in existence the log book of another Ju390 test pilot Hans Werner Lerche showing that he flew the Ju390 on 28 October 1943. His log book is on display at the Vienna Museum:
How is it possible that Hans Werner Lerche flew the Ju390 on 28 October 1943, if Kössler and Ott said it was not completed until June 1944?
Ju390's performance and take off weights Questioned?
During the war The Japanese requested information about the Ju390's performance because Japan wished to manufacture it under license. therefore the Japanese Embassy sent derails back to Tokyo in encrypted signals.
US Navy Intelligence produced a report based on Magic decrypts which includes performance data for the Ju390:
Specifications (Ju 390 V1/ prior May 1944)
Length: 34.20 m (112 ft 2 in)
Wingspan: 50.30 m (165 ft 1 in)
Height: 6.89 m (22 ft 7 in)
Wing area: 254 m² (2,730 ft²)
Empty weight: 39,600 kg (87,100 lb)
Loaded weight: 53,112 kg (117,092 lb)
Max. takeoff weight: 75,500 kg (166,400 lb)
Powerplant: 6× BMW801-E radial engines, 2,000hp 1,488 kW (2,027 PS) each
Cruise speed 186 mph (@6,500ft altitude)
T/O Run: 4,920ft /1476m
Maximum speed: 505 km/h (310 mph @19,680 ft)
Range: 6,373 km (3,960 mi)/ 3441 nm
Service ceiling: 6,000 m (26,200 ft)
Wing loading: 209 kg/m² (42.8 lb/ft²)
Power/mass: 0.17 kW/kg (0.10 hp/lb)
Why not write to the Maritime Union of Australia MUA ?
They scanned the photos for Ron and set up a blog for him in tribute to his career. What could you possibly be so scared of except the truth?
sigh...... kiwi anyone?
Ju 390 Help! - Page 6 - Axis History Forum
Scattershot argument? Check.
Multiple font sizes, random bold, capitalization, and multiple font colors, along with random photos? Check.
Strawman argument? Check.
Gentleman, we have a crazy in the house.
No, why don't you write to them, then provide their response? It is your argument and claim that "Ron Whylie" was a merchant seaman on the Cameronia in December 1942 with a camera and that he managed to snap a clear action shot of a then non-existent aircraft, was able to develop the photo, and kept it for decades after the war.
Link to the blog please.
Actually pointless to go into the OP any further. But to rely on "sources" like Green, Griehl and photomontages AND at the same time to refute deserving people like Kössler/Ott with flimsy arguments is unacceptable.
Correct, the existing contracts were cancelled in May ´44. That means, the Reich did not want to buy any more planes. Thus V2 became de facto and de jure company property. And there is nothing written about a prohibition of completion.
Source: Green (I refuse to name the book titles): for those who don't know: this „gentleman“ has made a name for himself by allowing quite a bit of errrr..."artistic freedom" in his books. His printed works have long been considered pulp literature
Pancherz did not "reveal" anything, because he could not present any evidence. Thus it remains an "assertion". Small but important difference ;-)
Except for this article, there is absolutely NOTHING to prove Pancherz claim - since 53 years NOTHING!
Kossler and Ott write in this context about the Ju 390 V2(!): a small but important detail, one could let pass as a careless error - if such and similar, uh, "inaccuracies" would not belong to the OP´s standard repertoire ;-).
I'm almost sorry, but the way the OP presents his "evidence" makes me think involuntarily of the title of a novella by Dostoyevsky.........
And just to be clear, despite claims of Magic decrypts, the posted page from German Technical Aid to Japan; A Survey is just one of 196 drawn a USN ONI report by the same name published 6-15-1945 from information gathered in occupied Germany. One might note that Magic refers to Japanese encrypted messages, not intelligence gathered on the ground in Europe.
You should stop, though it has never seemed to bother you before, claiming things are what they are not. The introduction page of this document reads:
“The following survey of German technical aid to Japan is a selected abstract of a vast amount of material available on the subject. The entire' study is pointed to depict those German techniques, devices, and weapons whose use by the Japanese would have a bearing on the war in the Pacific. Logistic shipments of raw materials and ordinary commercial products and the inferences therefrom are not treated, except insofar as they affect the probable production of a particular type of weapon or equipment.
“Where there is positive evidence that a particular item or its description reached Japan it is so stated. Otherwise, it must be assumed that the transfer was dependant on its bulk, difficulties of transportation and the perils of the sea.
“As the intelligence exploitation of Germany proceeds, more and more material on transfers to Japan is uncovered. Although it is not believed that this evidence will change the basic implications contained herein, new details will undoubtedly be developed. These will be issued as corrections and additions as they become available.
“This survey has been arranged along the lines of the Combined Intelligence Objectives Sub-Committee index of technical subjects as technical intelligence on German materiel is so maintained. Further, for the use of those who are not familiar with German equipment, a short description is given. Where possible, the probability and date of production by the Japanese are given, with any conclusions which may be drawn from the transfer.
“However, it must be realized that the setting forth of the details of the exchange is only part of the picture, and that the meat of the problem, viz, the use which the Japanese are making or intend to make of German plans and prototypes, can only be answered by identification of the German origin and complete technical intelligence reports by those of our Pacific forces who encounter the Japanese version in action.
“It is therefore requested that all Commands who receive this survey and who discover information which will cast light on Japanese use of German weapons and techniques send full details via regular channels to the Office of Naval Intelligence, Technical Intelligence Center, so that their implications may be assessed and those charged with countermeasures given timely warning.”
Do you, or anyone else, see the word “magic”, anywhere in this document introduction?
I did not think so. So why do you describe this page from a USN report as a Magic document when it is not? Frankly if anyone has ever read an actual Magic summary report (and I’ve bunches of them) it is immediately obvious that the page is not in the Magic report format.
No, Simon, you have not found anything new and your attempts to inflate it as some great intelligence coup are laughable.
This document has been available for well over ten years from the CARLS digital library site, the whole thing found here, in 10 parts, which you have to download one at a time: Part_01
For that matter there is also a US Army Military Intelligence document, German Technical Aid to Japan – MIS, 396 pages, dated 8-31-1945, covering the same subject, also available for over ten years, found on the CARLS site here in five down loadable parts: World War II Operational Documents.
Below is what that report has to say about the Ju390. Nothing earth shattering, but you might want to note the date first test flown (10 months AFTER your wonderful photo) and, of course, the range, which, as presented, is considerably, and woefully, short of a great circle, you know the shortest way, round trip from a base near Bordeaux and New York City.
There is no traceable mention of a Ron Whylie (except the posts of a certain person) in the WWW.
But there is a Ron Wylie (without h), former Australian sailor. He must be 99 years old by now:
Unsung sailors of merchant navy seek a change of tune
and indeed has (or had) his own website:
which seems to be inactive since 2012
Then let's see KMF-5...after all, there was not only the convoy:
Arnold Hague convoy database - KMF convoys
it was actually attacked from the air....but .in the Mediterranean....by Heinkels......
covered quite extensively here:
Convoy KMF 5 - Aerial Torpedoing of the Cameronia - Feldgrau.net
One is almost tempted to help the guy with his background research out of sheer pity, lest it become so grotesquely obvious what nonsense he's spouting right away
But seriously, I just find it incredibly tragic when someone goes to such lengths, only to disqualify himself so completely.......
I would not give him anything to "help" as anything you give him he will twist into a lie. .And he knows it, it is not a mistake or misinterpretation.
Don't worry - I just wanted to vent my sarcasm somehow with this sentence
The man is beyond help.....
yup, let's go get a beer and talk about something real, rather than wasting time and effort fending off someone's fevered imagination . . . unless we want a whole lot of laughs.