Kursk (by popular demand!)

Well grab a bucket friend ! just kidding. There are defiantely a few pics around the office and my wife's garden room much to her dismay. I've got about a dozen photo albums and you can guess that it's mostly on Luftwaffe subjects, a/c and personal pilot/crew photos.
I'm all for maybe the guys taking personals and submitting to Otto as I would love to see everyone in their Sunday finest or at least clothed.....ha, ha ! in front of their collections or bookshelves/office, etc.....think it was great of Otto to include member profiles for those who have submitted their interests as this always at least me to figure somewhat as to whom I am chatting. Thinking about seriously having a freind come over with his digital and take some pics of little ol me and the office and then send through to Otto or at least figure how I can post images on the forums.....then all of you can get a real good laugh at Mr. red haired hippie !

E

 

Heh heh heh, and if you want a better laugh--go to the Google Search Engines and type in u 181 and go to the UK Munchen 1926: site--there is both german and English pages. Im in the second pic (im slightly smaller in weight now) and Dieter Hille is standing to my right, and next to him is Micki Muller. My friend Susanne is on the otherside of the pic with my friend Karl Kaiser just behind her and to Susannes right is Gunther Bartussek.

 

Spring 1943-preparing for Kursk

On 1 February 1943 during a conference in his headquarters Hitler spoke the prophetic words: I shall think it over yet, but I can say that the possibility of winning the war in the East through offensive operations does not exist any more. We should realise it very clearly. Soon however the desire to build up his prestige and revenge for Stalingrad won again over the sober mind. The new 6th Army, created on the basis of the hitherto Army Group Hollidt, had been even christened as the "Army of Avengers" by the Göbbels' propaganda.

In May 1943 the German military industry was at its peak of tank production: it produced 5.7 times more tanks than in an average month of 1941, and 3.1 times more than in 1942. Simultaneously the quality leap was also made: serial production of modernized tanks Pz.Kpfw.T-III and Pz.Kpfw.T-IV, as well as new types - Pz.Kpfw.T-V Panther and Pz.Kpfw.T-VI Tiger had started. In the T-III the 37mm gun was replaced by the 50mm one, and the T-IV was fitted with a 75mm long-barrelled gun.

Yet in 1943 the Luftwaffe's Achilles' heel was not as much the machines as the crews. A severe shortage of experienced pilots had occurred. While in March 1942 the bomber aviation had a reserve of 127 crews, a year later it was already lacking 364 crews.

And the thing I was looking for on this site:

The only source of reserve divisions could be the passive, or so-called "uneconomical", sectors of the front. There were three of them: Demyansk bulge in the Army Group North, Rzhev - Vyazma bulge in the Army Group Centre, and Kuban bridgehead in the Army Group A. Although thereto Hitler opposed any ideas of "rectifying" the frontlines, now he was forced to authorize them. On 21 February units of the 16th Army started a secret withdrawal from Demyansk bulge, completed successfully by the beginning of March; belated Soviet pursuit could not challenge it. This way the Army Group North moved nine divisions to its reserve. On 1 - 23 March the command of the Army Group Centre also successfully carried out the operation of withdrawal of the 9th Army from Rzhev - Vyazma bulge to a new, shorter position. This way they moved to its reserve one army command, four army corps commands, fifteen infantry divisions, three armoured divisions, two motorized divisions, and one SS cavalry division. Whereas did not succeed the withdrawal of the forces from Kuban bridgehead, widely advertized as the Wehrmacht's reinforcements' reservoir. Active operations of the North Caucasian Front and the Black Sea Fleet in the vicinity of Novorossiysk and in Taman peninsula engaged the entire Germano-Romanian 17th Army in a protracted and exhausting defence. Only two armoured divisions managed to pull out of the deadly trap.


http://2ndww.tripod.com/Kursk/total.htm

 

This thread has been incredibly informative, you guys have done great work. Can i get a good detailed description of the overall terrain of the battle, ive checked out the http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/town/avenue/vy75/maps.htm page but it only has good terrain map of the Prokhorovka area. Was it mostly a steppe? I've heard talk about marshes and swampy roads and stuff...thanks

 

I could not find anything on the net yet... but if you read F.W. von Mellenthin's "Panzer Battles" I believe he gives a description of the area with some hand drawn maps.

 

Just love to bring this thread back...



On Frankson-Zetterling book on "Battle of Kursk" from 2002 an estimation on battle of Prokhorovka:

Lasted 12.-16.7.

Losses:

Red Army

334 Tanks ands assault guns totally destroyed
21,000 men dead

German Army

25 tanks and assault guns totally destroyed
5,500 men dead

 

Holy cow! How long afterwards did the Germans take to do their victory parade on the Red Square?

 

Actually I myself was in the illusion of the Prokhorovka battle being losses ca 800 tanks for Russians and 500 for Germans until 2002 ( and still in many newer war books ) so I am still a bit angry on this matter...propaganda *#%&"*!

 

The thing I'm most flabbergasted about is the fact that nobody really bothered to write/dispute anything about the overhyped battle, and most particularly the Germans in this case. One would think people like von Manstein would have found the opportunity to write about yet another phyrric victory too good to be true. Very odd indeed.

 

It's all about research and taking the time to visit living vets and care to take the time and monies to visit the world's archiv's.

the information is there but still in our high-tech age some authors play the simple way out and re-post old news which for the fact that much of it is incorrect.

Suggest a copy of Geoge Nipes book on the fighting at Kursk and the River Mius during 1943.

 

I've also read about those figures at Prokhorovka, which only confusse me...

But after some research I think there are some true things about both versions. The Soviets lost a very large ammount of tanks and were running out of reserves while Von Manstein still had his units almost complete and still had numerous reserves. However, in the northern flank, Model didn't have reserves and most of his tanks had been destroyed because of mines and AT guns.

In the south, we know about the Panthers being lost to mechanical failures and certainly, there were some very large tank-to-tank battles in which there were many vehicles ramming each other. But the German Tigers, new Pz IVs and AT Stukas made the Red Army paid dearly.

What is NOT in discussion is that Kursk's cost was 100.000 casualties for the Germans and more than a thousand tanks lost.

 

I'm not in a pleasant mood right now after the news I have been made aware of.....

but Fried if you are referring to Panthers of the three W-SS divisions they were not here at Kursk. the only W-SS Panthers were with 2nd SS and they were first used in August of 43. if this is not what you were thinking of then........sorry.......

 

I think he is referring to the approximately 200 Panthers in XXXXVIII Panzer Korps, those in the 39th Panzer Regiment, more specifically 51st and 52nd Panzerabteilung. As I'm sure you know, most of those broke down or caught fire in the first day, when the unit lost 160(!) Panthers. For the remainder of the battle the unit strength hovered around 40 tanks.

 

Cripeys Kai! Do you type this all in from the books or do you scan it? What an effort! I got 31 pages (hot off the printer) to read on the way home now.

I have two quick questions (don't want to stop the momentum you guys have built up).

Did Hitler ordering the retreat of his SS divisions to stem the tide at Salerno lose the battle for Kursk or was it already lost?

Did the allies time their invasion to happen during the greatest tank battle in history?!!

 

Brat, the 1st Ss was ordered back to Italy. The 3rd Ss I cannot remember what happened to them but they stayed on the Ost Front. The 2nd Ss stayed close to the <Mius river> and slaughtered the Soviets in several Soviet attacks on their defensive postions......

gotta run out the door but will return much later...

~E

 

Very interesting thread you've got here Kai !

Just some additional information:
After Op. Zitadelle II.SS-Pz.Korps was sent south, to Mius, along with the 3rd (Heer) Pz.Div., this division was then attached to the Corps while the 1st SS left for Italy (N Italy/Slovenia/Croatia). 2nd and 3rd SS Pz.Gren.Divs suffered horrible losses (especially panzers) in three day fighting and just barely managed to destroy the Russian bridgehead. Afterwards the II.SS.Pz.Korps (only Corps stab that is) was also sent to Italy while the two divisions back to Charkow, where they managed to stop two Russian Tank Armies (for a while).

Maybe someone could post all Op.Zitadelle RKT

to start just some SS RKTs: two big boys - Wisliceny and Webber, the RK driver - Thaler, the Slovene RKT - Grascher, the adjutant of the Devil's adjutant - Wolff, foreign secretary's son - v.Ribbentrop and so on.

Doppelkopf

 

Thanx Guys!

and BTW, I don´t want to take the credit for myself the thread´s for all of us to learn and understand of this great battle.



From the interesting book by Frankson-Zetterling that I have mentioned a couple of times before, it is actually claimed that Hitler had already BEFORE the beginning of the operation Zitadelle decided that the Waffen-SS troops would be sent to Italy if there was an invasion ( read when ) and possibly fall of Mussolini ( later on ). So it may be that Hitler did not invent the withdrawal of troops from the battle as he heard of the invasion in Sicily ( invaded on 10 July 1943 ).I think Hitler cancelled Zitadelle on 13th. Yet as the Russians made breakthroughs only LAH could be sent.

http://www.geocities.com/wolfram55/russia43.html

And:

Although Manstein still had hopes of victory as late as the 12th, Hitler ordered a withdrawal on the 13th in order, he said, to transfer troops to the Mediterranean to deal with the Anglo-American invasion of Sicily. Dunn comments, "Although Hitler mentioned Sicily as one reason for the termination of the offensive, Manstein also noted other reasons were given including the threat to the Mius River front and the Soviet attack north of Orel that began on July 12".

http://www.skalman.nu/history/books-review-kursk.htm

I guess the reason why it is also seen that taking the Waffen-SS troops away from the battle caused failure is that von Manstein has so forcefully claimed that he could have continued and maybe win with the troops he had but could not continue without the Waffen-SS.

 

This was what I meant, Erich. The 200 panthers attached to 'Großdeutschland' Panzer division.

Brat, the battle was lost by the time.

The pincer movement had failed. The northern flank had advanced 17 kiloemtres at an enormous costs. By the 13th, ALL of marshal Von Kluge's forces were engaged and the Red Army was already attacking the III Panzer Army - to the north of the IX Army in the northern part of the salient. So, the northern pincer not only was not advancing, but was being treathened from its flank.

In the south, however, Von Manstein's troops were inflicting heavy casualties to the Red Army and were gaining ground - 35 kilometres inside enemy lines - and several bridgeheads. Von Manstein's troops - the WSS Panzer divisions - still had enough forces to go on with the fighting and he still had some 10 divisions in reserve. However, there were also signs of Soviet attacks in his southern flank along the Mius. Then Hitler transferred the SS Panzerkorps from Kursk and Von Manstein lost his opportunity of squeezing the salient from the south - which in any case, would have been useless, since the northern pincer was halted.

I am not sure of this. I have never read of such level of co-operation in WWII as there was in WWI, but I guess the Allies - thanks to ULTRA - knew when the German offensive in Kursk was going to take place.

 

guess if you guys really want to know about the IInd SS Pz Korps during this time frame then you nedd some copies of

Weidingers 2nd SS Das Reich 43-44
G. Nipes book on the River Mius
S. Stadler's book on Kursk

who knows what would of happened if the 3rd and 2nd SS had not stopped where they did.... during the battle ?

 

Actually from what I gather (and i did read two books Erich mentioned), there wasn't much chance of a victory in the south. The Russians gained enough time with the battle at Prokhorovka to establish new defensive positions and await the Germans. On 13th the offensive was called off but Hitler allowed Manstein to continue with operations in the south till the 17th when the forces were transferred to Mius. The Germans lost the momentum and with it the tactical victory in the south (SS-Grupf. Krüger analysis this in a document composed after the battles at Mius)

Manstein sole reserve (by this I mean Army group's sole reserve) was Nehring's 24.Pz.Korps with three under-equipped panzer division's (17., 23. and 5.SS-Pz.Gren.Div.), but this was on 15th or 16th already sent to Izyum.