London Explosions

Wait, im sorry, there are SOME of those quotes that DO exist.

Ive seen so many quotes that are purely fabricated, that I thought you were just qouting the same type of quotes. I have taken the time to read some of those quotes and I have found that there are some that exist. My apologies for my prior inconsederation.

But what exactly is wrong with those quotes?? :-? They seem perfectly fine to me, they do not condone any evil. Please explain.

 

5: The Table Spread

14 And with those who say: "Lo! we are Christians," We made a covenant, but they forgot a part of that whereof they were admonished. Therefor We have stirred up enmity and hatred among them till the Day of Resurrection, when Allah will inform them of their handiwork


45 And We prescribed for them therein: The life for the life, and the eye for the eye, and the nose for the nose, and the ear for the ear, and the tooth for the tooth, and for wounds retaliation. But whoso forgoeth it (in the way of charity) it shall be expiation for him. Whoso judgeth not by that which Allah hath revealed: such are wrong-doers. Life for life, eye for eye, nose for nose, ear for ear, and tooth for tooth. Non-Muslims are wrong doers.
46 And We caused Jesus, son of Mary, to follow in their footsteps, confirming that which was (revealed) before him in the Torah, and We bestowed on him the Gospel wherein is guidance and a light, confirming that which was (revealed) before it in the Torah - a guidance and an admonition unto those who ward off (evil).
47 Let the People of the Gospel judge by that which Allah hath revealed therein. Whoso judgeth not by that which Allah hath revealed: such are evil-livers.
48 And unto thee have We revealed the Scripture with the truth, confirming whatever Scripture was before it, and a watcher over it. So judge between them by that which Allah hath revealed, and follow not their desires away from the truth which hath come unto thee. For each We have appointed a divine law and a traced-out way. Had Allah willed He could have made you one community. But that He may try you by that which He hath given you (He hath made you as ye are). So vie one with another in good works. Unto Allah ye will all return, and He will then inform you of that wherein ye differ.
49 So judge between them by that which Allah hath revealed, and follow not their desires, but beware of them lest they seduce thee from some part of that which Allah hath revealed unto thee. And if they turn away, then know that Allah's Will is to smite them for some sin of theirs. Lo! many of mankind are evil-livers.
50 Is it a judgment of the time of (pagan) ignorance that they are seeking ? Who is better than Allah for judgment to a people who have certainty (in their belief) ?
51 O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for friends. They are friends one to another. He among you who taketh them for friends is (one) of them. Lo! Allah guideth not wrongdoing folk. Don't take Jews or Christians for friends. If you do, then Allah will consider you to be one of them.
52 And thou seest those in whose heart is a disease race toward them, saying: We fear lest a change of fortune befall us. And it may happen that Allah will vouchsafe (unto thee) the victory, or a commandment from His presence. Then will they repent them of their secret thoughts.
53 Then will the believers say (unto the people of the Scripture): are these they who swore by Allah their most binding oaths that they were surely with you ? Their works have failed, and they have become the losers.

59 Say: O People of the Scripture! Do ye blame us for aught else than that we believe in Allah and that which is revealed unto us and that which was revealed aforetime, and because most of you are evil-livers ? Jews and Christians are evil-livers.
60 Shall I tell thee of a worse (case) than theirs for retribution with Allah ? (Worse is the case of him) whom Allah hath cursed, him on whom His wrath hath fallen and of whose sort Allah hath turned some to apes and swine, and who serveth idols. Such are in worse plight and further astray from the plain road.



72 They surely disbelieve who say: Lo! Allah is the Messiah, son of Mary. The Messiah (himself) said: O Children of Israel, worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord. Lo! whoso ascribeth partners unto Allah, for him Allah hath forbidden paradise. His abode is the Fire. For evil-doers there will be no helpers.


73 They surely disbelieve who say: Lo! Allah is the third of three; when there is no God save the One God. If they desist not from so saying a painful doom will fall on those of them who disbelieve



Killl Christians / jews (apes pigs) blah blah blah and so on...


lemme change the words around substituing Muslims for Christians etc... :bang: :angry:




17 They indeed have disbelieved who say: Lo! Allah is the Messiah, son of Mary. Say: Who then can do aught against Allah, if He had willed to destroy the Messiah son of Mary, and his mother and everyone on earth ? Allah's is the Sovereignty of the heavens and the earth and all that is between them. He createth what He will. And Allah is Able to do all things.

 

59 And let not those who disbelieve suppose that they can outstrip (Allah's Purpose). Lo! they cannot escape. Don't let the disbelievers think they can escape. They are your enemy and the enemy of Allah.
60 Make ready for them all thou canst of (armed) force and of horses tethered, that thereby ye may dismay the enemy of Allah and your enemy, and others beside them whom ye know not. Allah knoweth them. Whatsoever ye spend in the way of Allah it will be repaid to you in full, and ye will not be wronged.
61 And if they incline to peace, incline thou also to it, and trust in Allah. Lo! He, even He, is the Hearer, the Knower.
62 And if they would deceive thee, then lo! Allah is Sufficient for thee. He it is Who supporteth thee with His help and with the believers,
63 And (as for the believers) hath attuned their hearts. If thou hadst spent all that is in the earth thou couldst not have attuned their hearts, but Allah hath attuned them. Lo! He is Mighty, Wise.
64 O Prophet! Allah is Sufficient for thee and those who follow thee of the believers.
65 O Prophet! Exhort the believers to fight. If there be of you twenty steadfast they shall overcome two hundred, and if there be of you a hundred (steadfast) they shall overcome a thousand of those who disbelieve, because they (the disbelievers) are a folk without intelligence. Exhort the believers to fight. They will win easily, because disbelievers are without intelligence.
66 Now hath Allah lightened your burden, for He knoweth that there is weakness in you. So if there be of you a steadfast hundred they shall overcome two hundred, and if there be of you a thousand (steadfast) they shall overcome two thousand by permission of Allah. Allah is with the steadfast.
67 It is not for any prophet to have captives until he hath made slaughter in the land. Ye desire the lure of this world and Allah desireth (for you) the Hereafter, and Allah is Mighty, Wise.

 

Im sorry stonewall, I dont have the time to read all of that. I can see some qoutes that are familirar and others that are bull.

Please get to the point. Ill make it easy for you.

Step one: State ONE quote.
Step two: Express what you think about it.
Step three: Ill tell you if it exists.
Step four: If it DOES exist, ill describe what exactly its talking about and then well talk about it

Thanks, looking forward to discussing with you.

P.S I still dont get what your driving at, so please get to the point a bit quicker than this....

 

Hey, Desertwolf, good to see you back, man!

 

Just about all the quotes you mention are about condemning other religious groups to hell, and about how terrible hell will be for them, aren't they? This is pretty much what I've been hearing from the Christians on this forum, too. I want to bet that had Christianity been the most recent monotheistic religion, it would equally have written some slur on its religious rival into its holy book.

As to why I'm defending Islam on here, it doesn't make any sense to me either, actually. I should be supporting anything that argues against monotheistic religions. I must be biased.

Or it has something to do with the fact that I can't accept one monotheistic religion taking flak whereas the other comes off as just perfect, since both are of course just as wrong and false. It's not right to see Christians taking pride in their religion as opposed to the dreaded Islam. To expand on Ricky's parallel between modern-day Islam fundamentalism and the crusades: this parallel holds water on the motivational level, but on the other hand, the crusades were ordered by the supreme head of the Christian Church and approved, if not participated in, by everyone calling him/herself Christian. This can't be said of Islam-inspired terrorism.

 

Thanks Ricky

Glad to be here

 

This was largely because of the condition of Christinity at the time - under very tight control by (effectively) the whim of one man. Bear in mid that most nobility at the time deliberately chose not to be literate (reading & writing is for wimps), and the church kept all bibles etc in Latin, so nobody could understand them even if they could read...

So to your average Edward, if the Pope says 'smiting Infidel is good & just' then you naturally believe that smiting infidel is good & just. After all, he is God's chosen mouthpiece, because he has said that he is... um, wait a sec...
Plus you get great opportunities for rape & pillage without the associated penance normally required.
Rulers like it 'cos it gets the fractious fighting men out of your hair.

Modern Muslims (as far as I know) are required to study the Koran, which is a good move. It means that (in theory, at least) you cannot have the whole religion warped by one man.

 

Well, a few seem to be 'have nothing to do with Jews & Christians - befriend them & you are not a true follower of Allah'.


On the topic of translations etc...

Muslims always tell me that the Bible is effectively polluted/untrue because it has been translated, and that the Koran exists in one version & one version only. (yes, it has been translated into other languages, but that is not the Koran - stop me if I am wrong Desertwolf!)

However, various (atheist) historians have pointed out that there were several versions of the Koran in circulation, until about the 6th / 9th Century (I'm working from memory here - I will find correct details!) the chappie in charge decided that all versions that he disapproved of should be burnt, and never seen again. IIRC that included the version preferred by the Prohet Mohammed.

 

The Koran is only regarded in its true form if its written in Arabic. That is widely known since in translations its meaning is lost and widely misunderstood. The different versions Ricky is talking about are widely known. The different caliphates and civilizations have changed the HANDWRITING of the Koran but NEVER the content. The mere idea of a different handwriting has created great strife and controversy. As for changing te content of the koran or merely the idea of adding a single word in a passage.... Believe me that would really create havoc in the islamic world. The handwriting principle has thus been resolved in a simple manner. The Koran now can be read in simple arabic form by children and the other Korans (which are highly decorated and written in a beautiful manner) that pose a more difficult time at reading them are for more older people that are better able to read such handwriting. Offcourse there are exceptions. I personally know a child who memorized the whole Koran at age 7 and who can read and write much better arabic than me. And their are iliterate people that can barely read simplified arabic much less....


By the way, that passage about not talking to christains and what such... Thats one of the quotes thats BULL. Im a living example that its wrong and I can give you unlimited passages where nearly the exact opposite is told.

 

[quote="RickyMuslims always tell me that the Bible is effectively polluted/untrue because it has been translated, and that the Koran exists in one version & one version only. (yes, it has been translated into other languages, but that is not the Koran - stop me if I am wrong Desertwolf!)
.[/quote]

Entirely correct.

 

Roel wrote:

However, it was appropriately used. The poverty causes crime argument has been advanced by leftists historically. The idea that free will doesn't exist and that all men are merely products of their environment is certainly a left wing viewpoint.

You are saying Christianity hasn't been criticized, even villified, for it's excesses? I know you are well read and surely know better than that.
As far as everyone who called themselves Christian participating in the Crusades that is far from true as well. What portion of the population of Europe do you think actually journeyed to the middle east to fight the infidels?

 

Getting back to the original topic:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/4676061.stm

I must admit that I work quite close to the station, but heard nowt...

 

Well yes. I was just making sure that such a balance was also present in this topic.

Only a few hundred thousand on a population of 60 million that Europe had in those days. However, what I said was that the crusades were "approved, if not participated in, by everyone calling him/herself Christian". There may be some fault in my English but what I meant to say is that every Christian in Europe felt the crusades were justified and needed, even though few facts indicate that they were; some even joined them.

I thought all religion worked like that? Jesus said he was God's chosen mouthpiece and son, and therefore people believed him. Mohammed said he had heard God speak to him, and therefore (and because he explained some mole on his body as a holy mark, apparently) people believed him. Both are naturally as easily complete lies as they are truths. We cannot know for sure.

On another issue...

It was used by leftists, yes. What you're implying, however, is that it is therefore wrong, which I think is quite a bad argument.
By the way, I was trying not to make it sound as if I was saying "they're poor so they kill innocent people", since that doesn't make any sense to me either. The factors I mentioned do play a role in providing terrorist organizations with a following, though; it seems difficult for terrorism to go hand in hand with rational consideration of what you're doing, and therefore with free will.

 

A question for Desertwolf, in an attempt to remove more of my ignorance...

A report on MSN
http://newsbox.msn.co.uk/article.aspx?a ... ndows-1252
had friends etc of the 4 suspected bombers talking about them. One guy said:

According to an unnamed member of his wife's family they had originally disapproved of him because he was not as traditional a Muslim as they would have wished.

"He does not believe in having a beard or wearing a hat."

Is the beard / hat actually a religious tradition or a cultural tradition?

I know plenty of Mulslims (mostly but not exclusively older men) who always have the beard & hat, but plenty more who do not.

 

The beard, yes, the hat no.

Not wearing a beard is not forbidden. (I raise a beard whenever I want to and shave it whenever I want to. Right now no beard ). It is just that when a person has a beard then it is a sign of elderness. And in the cultural heritige of the arab people old age is viewed with respect.

The hat is purely cultural, nothing in isla has to do with wearing the hat. (Im assuming this guy came from North Africa because in the middle east we dont even wear hats but a sort of turban around the head as a shield from the desert elements).

The conclusion is that the beard might intice in others respect due to signs of old age but the bottom line is respect has to be earned (or you can say the beard has to be earned ) like in everyother culture. As fort he hat theres no significance attached to it but in north africa it is widely worn by older people.

 

Thanks Desertwolf.

Kind of confirmed my suspicion that it was a cultural thing that has become a 'you're not a proper Muslim if...' thing. (correct me if I'm wrong).
Beards have been a sign of age & wisdom for yonks - Ancient Greeks had that tradition (they even believed that the ability to grow a beard was the proof that men are superior to women :-? ), even Anglo-Saxon England had that tradition (check the Bayeurx Tapestry for beards...)

Which confirms my belief that people everywhere are people.
Like a friend of mine who maintains that his family & himself are Catholic - because on Fridays they eat fish for tea. :roll:

 

We're already getting incidental "fallout" - Ceefax reported that some "high-ups" in government have stated that the proposed ID cards would have done nothing to prevent the bombing (OK I can see that), would do little in tracking down leads (again, logical) but will be introduced anyway. BUT it also reported there may be some "restrictions on personal liberties", eg (and these were stated), ID card introduction, access to the underground (what!!) and electronic communications. This forum may be losing its Brit members :lol:
We're probably on a list somewhere because of our "pro-war tendencies". A couple of months ago I complained to my local library where I did most of my surfing that I couldn't access Tony Williams' site after their introduction of anti-spam software. I informed them I had a legitimate reason for accessing the site and that it wasn't pornographic etc, but got funny looks when I told them that it was to do with weapons. They agreed to review access provided his site didn't give instructions on how to build weapons of mass destruction - I got seriously funny looks when I replied that was something I'd known how to do for years! This possibly ties in with the "do you get laughed at" topic.

 

Which is why women were tried as witches, and men weren't. Old people who lost their teeth ended up with the lower jaw rising to meet the nose (in appearance), giving the traditional look of witches, men could grow beards to hide this, women couldn't...

 

It is silly, especially when most libraries (mine does) has similar information within books, available for people to borrow, photocopy, make notes from, etc. :roll:

It is always tempting to have a little fun in such situations (use an obviously fake foreign accent and ask for books on Nuclear weaponry), but apparently that is not a good idea...