Longest range recorded kill

I take that as a indication you are not prepared to give a single source for anything. Can't say I ever expected you too.

Did he come down the chimney on Dec 25th? Surely you could have been a bit more original with the name?

Then you should not have claimed you had sources (every source you had) that said the Soviets did not purge. You now inform us you do not have any sources that say this. Try and be more precise in the future.

 

I hate it! I wrote an long reply and it disappeared into the universe! Grrrrh!

 

So your friend said the same as i did. The fact is that you don´t need the best that you can find, you only need a equipment that is good enough to do the job. The snipers today are mostly very experienced marksman and extra trained for that job. The WW2 snipers were often good shooters with an scoped rifle. At the beginning of the war the Wehrmacht used hunting scopes on their rifles and gave them to soldiers who shot a bit better than the average men has done. But if you have the experience from shooting a huge ammount of rounds with your rifle under any circumstances you will be able to take an hit at 1000yards and its no matter what scope you use. The problem with condensation at the inside of the lenses was often at the beginning of tempereature changes like from +10°C to -5°C or at high humidity. There are some basics that you need to make an well placed shot at 1000m. 1. an well trained marksman, 2. a accurate rifle, 3. good ammo, 4. a usable scope. As your famous Gunny Hathcock stated, "The three most important things to make an good sniper are: practice, practice, practice!"
Now we can go at a range and shoot with the Mosin, the K98k and the M1D in original condition and we´re able to make an hit at the 1000m. Thats good, but not the same like shooting during a war situation, cause it isn´t that stressy and you have time to set up the rifle and shoot as long as you hit the target. Thats the really game to do it under battle conditions with all the surounding facts and thoughts, after nights without enough sleep with an target at unknown distance, the thoughts if it is worth to give your position away, is it an ambush? You have to work like a calculator and a PC in seconds, range estimation, windage, moving target and so on. I think that it is no matter if one did this at 1000m or "only" at 800m. All the guys and Girls( in the case of Soviet Russia) who were able to place an clean and good shoot under this conditions are great. And there is no matter if there is gas in the scope or not. In the Old "Wild West" they had scopes without gas on their Winchesters or Sharps too. And i had the chance to shoot with such an old Sharps and an scope. Its amazing to see how good it works. And Formerjughead, believe me you have to wait for seconds to hear the impact of those 300grs bullets out at 800m!

 

Ulrich, 100% agree!
The thing to remember about the Russian Snipers is that they were deployed in the defense and were not always shooting from hasty positions. In the case of Stalingrad and Kursk the snipers had survey maps of the city, which they used to establish range on the Germans for both direct and indirect fire missions. Most of the current operations guidelines for modern sniping in the defense is derived from lessons learned at Stalingrad by the Russians and mistakes made by the Germans.

 

Thank you Brad! Yes, the modern snipers learned a lot of the Russian ones of WW2. Especially the urban warfar is inspired by the battle of Stalingrad. You´re right, the German Snipers made a lot of mistakes. They were often to find in an "Last Man" position by the retreating troops and an known target. Complitely different were the Soviet Snipers which set up their own hunting tour and had ofte an second man as an scout with them. An advantage to the lone Wolf´s of the Wehrmacht.

 

Not so much the German Snipers, per se; but, more the conduct of troops while in siege. IE: Noise and Light discipline, movement and exposure, area cleanliness, cover and concealment.

 

Yes Brad, a loose discipline is an murder! What do you think how many soldiers lost her lifes while doing trivia things like smoking, walking around against the cold or follow the call of the nature? I suppose that 1000 of good men lost their lives for the failure of the easiest rules.

 

Not sure what mistakes it was actual German snipers made, esp. considering that they by far were the best educated in the art of sniping during the war. This excludes the squad marksmen ofcourse.

Also it's quite interesting to note that much of todays US army & marine sniper training is based on WW2 German sniper training techniques.

This might be of interest:

1/7: YouTube - German Sniper Training 1944: 1 of 7
2/7: YouTube - German Sniper Training 1944: 2 of 7
3/7: YouTube - German Sniper Training 1944: 3 of 7
4/7: YouTube - German Sniper Training 1944: 4 of 7
5/7: YouTube - German Sniper Training 1944 ca 1944 5 of 7
6/7: YouTube - German Sniper Training 1944: 6 of 7
7/7: YouTube - German Sniper Training 1944 ca 1944 7 of 7

To understand even better how well trained the German Scharfschützen were I suggest reading Peter Senich's The German Sniper 1914-1945.

 

You need to cite your source on this one bud. I have been through both the Army and Marine Sniper programs and several civillian (Police) courses. I have never once heard of any training being based on the German programs.
The only thing I have ever seen associated with the WW2 German sniping is a the title of the 2nd Mar Div course book titled Kopfen Jager.

I would tread very lightly when comparing the techniques of current military (Marine or Army) to those of WW2 Germany; very lightly.
I also would not confuse examples of "Know Your Enemy" films to training and doctrine.

 

Really? The Germans "they by far were the best educated in the art of sniping during the war" Really?

It would be nice if you could give the difference in training and techniques between Seetaleralpe and say Llanberis or Bisley.

I know that the Heer did sterling work, but "by far better educated" than a Ghillie with a Holland and Holland improved Mk.4 and training at Bisley. "BY FAR BETTER" ?

Also it's quite interesting to note that much of todays US army & marine sniper training is based on WW2 German sniper training techniques.

Really?

Well I guess we'll have to ask some of the Marines on the forum to look through their manuals to see if "we learnt this from the german snipers in WW2" crops up.

Your increasingly setting yourself up as just a german fanboy.

 

Jeager, read Peter Senich's book before you start attacking me please.

US, British & Canadian snipers suffered very heavy casualties to German snipers in NW Europe because they lacked the extensive training & experience of their German counterparts, having to catch up to over 20 years of development made to the art of sniping by the Germans since WW1.

During WWII the British only had a few small training camps setup to train snipers, and some closed down before they had even educated a single person, IIRC the one at Bisley was closed down as-well, not to be reopened again until after the war, and then closed again in the 50s.

The Germans on the other hand had been educating and fielding snipers since WW1, gaining a deadly reputation, and they never stopped. In the years following WW1 and leading up to WWII the Germans developed a number of sniper training programs, incorperating many of the techniques that are still used to this very day.

The Army Sniper Association
"The Germans dominated sniper operations during WWII." (http://www.armysniper.org/history.aspx)

By the start of WWII the Germans had a great number of sniperschools, including Company 118's at Seetaleralpe specifically for Gebirgsjaegers (the one you mentioned).

Here's a list of places for German sniper training schools during WW2 (incomplete):

Stablack, Wanderen, Zeithain, Böttingen bei Münsingen, Sennelager, Hohenfels, Lamsdorf, Wildflecken/Röhn, Munster-Lager, Bergen/Celle, Heidelberg (Grossdeutschland), Grafenwöhr/East, Seethaler-Alpe, Obergruppe, Altwarp/Uckm, Bruck a d Leitha, Okabol, Döberitz, Dollersheim, Cottbus, Danzig-Langfuer, Küstrin, Coesfeld, Erfurt, Bamberg, Vienna, Kalisch.

 

Proeliator-
No one is attacking you; you are being asked to cite your sources. You can not make broad unsubstantiated statements and not be expected to back them up.

During the inter war period both the Army and the Marines as well as the British maintained sniper training.

A sniper is most effective in the defense and they are rarely sent out offensively unless they are providing security over an exposed flank or to gather information.

 

I'd argue that calling someone a fanboy is to be rather offensive...

And I cited my sources in the very post Jaeger responded to. So there is no excuse.

 

The training for the German snipers started later in war and i´m sure that i can say it wasn´t much different to others except the training for the Gebirgsjäger snipers. If you read Senich´s book you have to read others too. Like "With British Snipers to the Reich" from C. Shore, the well known one from Sepp Allersberger and the book from Zaitsev. All are good books and there were really good German snipers in WW2 out on the hunt but they were used under a wrong tactic which was close to the descriped german WWI tactic at Major Hesketh-Pritchards book"Sniping at France". The snipers were used to secure the flanks and the retreading troops. They were sent into trees and towers to give an report and shoot from there which cost a lot of lives on the snipers side. Others , like the british, became an aerea where they could move free and decide by them self to shoot at an good target or to give an report of enemy movements or strength. Snipers are very effective if they can work free and behind the enemies lines too to show them that they are nowhere safe. And in some cases the Wehrmacht used their snipers at cheap cannonfodder. Also a bad mistake was to use them in "Lone Wolf" Tactics while the British sent them always as pairs. Snipers on both sides weren´t in Armies tactics between the wars and both sides started their sniper programs to late but the allies learned their lessons a bit faster and better. Thats my opinion.

 

Sniper training.

My first CO was trained in Germany, one of my friends is trained in states. This is not second hand sources. Both men have similar training. The snipers we train here in Norway are trained in the same manner. The sniper skill set is the same all over the world. It hasn't changed since marksmen were invented.

In fact every grunt train the same skills. Even the conscript grunts train the same skills.
It can be described as fieldcraft and marksmanship.

When it comes to sniping tactics, it encompass the application of sniper. Gebirgsjaeger sums it up nicely.

Your claim that contemporary US sniping is based on german training/techniques is mindboggeling.

I have had the honour to train with US, UK, German, French and Dutch units in my career, and to the best of my knowledge no modern army operates with the lone wolf. It limits the efficiency of a sniper.

It is Jaeger. A title and badge that cost me buckets of sweat to get.

If you want to judge someone as better than another you should read up on what the other side did aswell. Field Manuals as well as memoirs and books such as Senich as you mention.

 

I agree with Jeager on this, I've done shooting at a gun club before the law changed all the basic rules are the same, I did very well 8 out of 10 bulls eyes hit I was told by a good friend of mine relax take aim and fire as if your life depended on it

 

First I'd like to say that I am in full agreement with everything Brad, Ulrich and Jaeger have posted in this thread. I have read each of their responses closely and find nothing that is not totally accurate. They're all poviding good accurate information.

Proeliator wrote:

I can't speak as to the U.S. Army's Sniper program but as for the Marine Corps, your statement is patently false.

The Marine Corps Sniper program in WWII was started by Lt.Col. William Whaling, during the Guadalcanal Campaign. The program was based upon the needs that arose at Guadancanal with no input from what the German's were doing.

From Wikipedia:
"In 1941, Lieutenant Colonel William "Wild Bill" Whaling, the executive officer of 5th Marine Regiment, 1st Marine Division, visualized and perceived the use for specialized missions encompassing reconnaissance at the division-level, which would be conducted above the normal infantry battalion-level in scouting and patrolling. He recommended to General Alexander Vandegrift the need of a special "Scout and Sniper unit" for the 1st Marine Division on Guadalcanal. Upon approval, by February 1, each of the three rifle companies that were used during the Guadalcanal campaign were tasked in sending one their best field craft Marines to devise the scout-sniper unit with each regiment containing a Scout and Sniper Platoon within the regimental headquarters and service company. This was the birth of division reconnaissance.
Most of these Marines were skilled marksmen and outdoorsmen. General Vandegrift appointed Lt. Colonel Whaling to start a school where the selected Marines received intense additional training. While some Marines weren't selected and were sent back to their units, others took their place and the "Whaling Group" was available to scout and spearhead operations. Initially, they acted as guides in movement of units from one area to another and were able to confirm unit locations in the thick jungle foliage. They later conducted independent patrols into areas of critical interests to the Division."

In Vietnam the Sniper program was the baby of Maj. Edward "Jim" Land. Aware of the Marine Corps use of scout/sniper employment during WWII, Land included this aspect in the employment of his Vietnam snipers. Land scoured the 1st Division for outstanding marksmen with good field skills and they worked out most of their tactics using common sense and practicality as their guiding priciple. They learned as they went along. Marine Corps sniping developed very differently from that employed by the U.S. Army. The Army used theirs more as an area denial type asset. Army snipers would set up in a fortified position, co-located with an infantry/artillery unit and would counter-snipe or target enemy scouts, ground troops and other targets of opportunity. The Marine Corps on the other hand went towards the scout/sniper method of deployment. While at times they utilized the same employment as Army snipers they would also accompany patrols and break off at a certain point or air insert into areas and hunt the enemy, both as a means of gathering intel, eliminate targets of opportunity or restrict movement. The book "Marine Sniper-93 confirmed kills", by Charles Henderson goes into the intial development quite heavily.
The post-Vietnam War sniper program built heavily on the practical experience gained in Vietnam and studied other countries experiences more heavily. The Ghillie suit is attributed to the British in WWI. Many of the urban sniping tactics and cover concealment tactics used by the Soviets in WWII were adopted. I really can't think of anything I have read directly attributed to the Germans in WWII.
Land was involved in the intial start up of the modern (post-Vietnam) sniper program and Lt.Col. Norman Chandler, and Carlos Hathcock became heavily involved. So I'd put my money on them being the most reliable sources on how the program developed, regardless of what Peter Senich states. In the interest's of full disclosure I have not read Senich's books and am taking your word for what he states. I do know what Chandler and Lands have stated and they do not bear out your statement.

Books by Chandler (partial)
Chandler..... Norman A., Lt. Col...... The One Shot Brotherhood (I have a personally autographed copy of this book).
Chandler..... Norman A., Lt. Col...... USMC Sniping: Death From Afar - Volume l
Chandler..... Norman A., Lt. Col...... USMC Sniping: Death From Afar - Volume ll
Chandler..... Norman A., Lt. Col...... USMC Sniping: Death From Afar - Volume lll
Chandler..... Norman A., Lt. Col...... USMC Sniping: Death From Afar - Volume lV
Chandler..... Norman A., Lt. Col...... USMC Sniping: Death From Afar - Volume V
Chandler..... Norman A., Lt. Col...... USMC Sniping: Death From Afar - Volume Vl
Chandler..... Norman A., Lt. Col...... USMC Sniping: Death From Afar - Volume Vll
Chandler..... Norman A., Lt. Col...& "White Feather: Carlos Hathcock USMC ScoutSniper"
Chandler..... Roy F.,

 

You have a good list of books and Charles Henderson´s book is a good read. There are also some others which are not bad like: Ed Kugler´s Dead Center, Charles Henderson´s Silent Warrior, the FM 23-10, U.S. Army Special OPS Courses with: Sniper Training and employment and so on. They are all good to read and give an small view into this topic. The best is, if possible, go with them on an training center, talk, listen and see.

 

Yes Henderson's book is a very good read, I highly recommend it to anyone.

 

No you didn't and feigning victimization to avoid providing sources is not acceptable. I am going to ask you once more to cite your sources for your claims that US Sniper doctrine is based on that of Germany.