Longest range recorded kill

That is some good shooting! Or lucky. I'm no sniper, but I could normally hit human-size targets at 350 using open sights (M-1 Garand) until I'd start to get overconfident. At that range the blade totally obscures the target.
I know there have been many incredible shots made by some extremely good snipers, but I wonder about the hit/miss ratio at those long ranges. I figure if a sniper fires enough rounds at targets a kilometre away, eventually he's going to score a hit. especially if he's firing into a crowd. I wonder who's going out and pacing off these 1100 metre distances in the heat of battle?

 

Vintovka,

I gotta say in all my years of looking through hundreds if not thousands of wartime optics from all sides, I have yet to see through a Soviet scope with clarity anywhere near that of German scopes from the period, let alone high end modern scopes. The clarity difference between German & Soviet scopes have always been very high in my experience, the German scopes being well ahead, and for a number of very good reasons; the German scopes are nitrogen purged and feature coated lenses, which makes a BIG difference.

As for the nitrogen purging, again I have never heard or read of a Soviet wartime scope featuring this, only post war scopes. Have you got a reference?

 

Hello,I do own several PU scope's including the very rare 1942 alloy models,and 3 PE focus models and 3 PEM models. I only own 2 German WWII scopes a 4x Zeiss and a 6X,for Clarity I will be honest I dont see 1 bit of difference between them and my Soviet scopes - all have excellent clarity,Soviet Union put a lot of time and effort into their optics,if a scope was not crystal clear it did not leave the factory. for information on the nitrogen in Soviet scopes I suggest to contact Vic Thomas on Gunboards.com - He is the authority on these optics and has traveled to the factory's who made these scope's,They did use nitrogen in them ever since 1936 - as stated though those 1936 PE models were a mess,the nitrogen was leaking after every shot a sniper took. I have fired every sniper rifle from the main Army's of WWII and my personal favorites is a toss up between the German k98 with the 4X Zeiss and the Soviet M91/30 with the 4X PEM. I can only guess the Soviet scope's you examined were well used in the war,Here's a photo through my 1943 PU scope - tree line is 750 yards as shown in the photo on the left,one of the clearest scope's I have ever owned (sorry about the camera flash mark in the scope)



kind regards

 

This is an important point. We are constantly being told Soviet optics were 'useless' at over 800 mtrs.
Can you state categoricaly that the optics you used are wartime examples and that they are on par with the German optics?
What do you say to those who claim they used the same equipment and it was not able to give a clear image?

 

I´ve shot an Mosin sniper rifle at an competition from an other shooter in original condition. It was only at 300m but the scope gave an clear image and the rifle had an amazing accuracy. I think it was more a problem to aim at longer distances than 900m for the reason of the weak magnification. For an good shooter a solvable problem.

 

Hello m kenny,Here are a few photo's I have on hand of my original WWII Russian sniper equipment

1943 original m91/30 PU


1937 original m91/30 PEM


1943 PU scope


1942 alloy PU scope - only a handful of these exist with the brass lense fitting


Later version 1942 alloy PU scope


Unknown WWII year - Soviet manufactured PU scope,a really odd example and the 1st ive come across,I bought this from a U.S. Marine who captured it in Iraq,The Iraqi's had been using it on an Anti Aircraft weapon - Optics are excellent


1944 m91/30 PU



Tomorrow I'll see If I can take a PU scope and my Zeiss 4x and get photo's through the optics so you guys can see the clarity on both is equal,I have hit man sized targets at 850 yards with PU/PEM rifles - they are extremely accurate,my 1943 PU above can hit a coin at 75 yards which ive done a few times. The m91/30 sniper rifle's/scope are on par with what the Germans were using. After firing 20-30 WW2 sniper rifles I would say the M91/30 PEM side mount is my favorite, Great optics, rugged, reliable and accurate. The m91/30 PU would be second,German K98 with 4X Zeiss would be 3rd,Scoped Lee Enfield would be 4th,03A4 Springfield would be 5th,That just my personal unbiased honest opinion from firing all these rifle's. Other's will differ from me of course,all depends on what your comfortable with.

Video's worth watching to see the accuracy of these WWII Russian sniper rifles

YouTube - Mosin Nagant M91/30 PU Sniper 5,6,7, 800 Meters

YouTube - 1,000 yards 1942 91/30 Russian Mosin-Nagant (P/U) sniper rifle

 

Wow, great stuff! Thanks for sharing.

 

Thanks a lot for looking!

 

So you've only looked through 2 German scopes Vintovka? That might explain it.

There are bad examples from each camp, and as such you need to have seen a lot from both to really know the difference. I have seen probably a thousand WW2 optical pieces and the best of the German scopes are right up there with the high end modern ones, they feature an amazing clarity, brilliance & FOV. The best of the Soviet scopes I have seen look like those in your last pictures vintovka, with your friend standing some distance away, and I notice a fair bit of clouding and distortion around the edges. You wont find these flaws on WW2 German scopes in good condition. (Unless it's a ZF4 from 45)




Notice that there is no distortion or cloudiness anywhere looking through these German scopes, whilst the pictures you posted with a look through your PU & PEM scopes displayed a fair bit of image distortion and cloudiness. That's the difference I've been talking about.

A view through a Russian PU scope for comparison:

 

nah the clouding is simply from my cheap camera,when looking through the scope in real life it's as clear as those you posted above - my friend from Russia who has a better camera has photo's he took through his original PU scopes - same clarity as those you posted above,his Pics will be up ASAP

 

Here we go,1944 (Progress plant) PU scope - Id say optical clarity is acceptable


I have seen many many German scopes with that poor clarity view like the PU you posted above,many of these scope's you will look through rather German or Russian will have cloudy optics etc... which is acceptable as they went through the worst war in human history,they were frozen in Stalingrad,drug through the mud at Kursk,fell in the river at the Dniepr or Dniestr.......

 

Your camera is fine, I can see that by the photos of the landscape. It also doesn't explain the distortion looking through the scope, this can't have been due to the camera, it's the scope. It's exactly the same as I've experienced looking through wartime Russian scopes, that's the way they look. The Russians didn't know about AR coatings, and according to all my sources they didn't get to know about nitrogen purging until after the war was over.

I can also tell you from personal experience that you'll notice a great improvement in clarity & brilliance looking through Russian scopes from about 1948-50 onwards as compared to wartime Russian scopes. At about this time the Russians started purging their scopes with nitrogen and also coated some of their optics, which made a real difference.

 

That is the best view through a PU scope I have ever seen, and I have seen MANY. You are sure this one hasn't been "refurbished"? Looks like what a post war scope would look like.

I havent seen a single German scope with anywhere near as much distortion as that Russian one, so I doubt that to say the least.

 

no sir my $60 camera is not the best to be honest,I can tell the difference between the camera shots and when im looking through the actual scope - no blur/no clouding. As you can see from the other photo I just posted these scopes have Excellent clarity,Do you disagree? If you go through ebays archives and look at the German scopes I promise you,you will see German scopes with bad optics.
Regards

 

That still doesn't explain the lense distortion Vintovka, that's from the scope; it doesn't just magically appear when looking through your camera, then it would be present on the landscape shot as-well.

 

There are a fair bit of fakes on ebay, as you probably know being interested in equipment from this era

Even so I haven't seen a single German scope display as much distortion as that found in the Russian scopes.

 

I have got the scope in my hands right now looking through it to check this out,100 percent clear.... heck I have taken photo's through a brand new 8X leupold and they turned out cloudy with distortion from this camera,But do you not agree that the photo I posted above show's PU scope's do have clear optics?

 

This could be easily settled.
Pro can give you the details of the scopes he looked through and Vin can see if he has(or can get) the same scope and then we might get somewhere.
As there were hundreds (if not thousands) of Soviet sights pro has checked surely he can remember the names/types?

 

Tell you what, take a picture through your Leopold and post it here, there shouldn't be any distortion.

Without being sure of the scopes history I can't make any judgement Vintovka, esp. not when I know what the view looks like through the average Russian scopes I have had the pleasure of putting my hands on; we're talking a great many here. That one picture stands out completely from the rest, leaving me feeling very suspicious.

 

There are only two types of interest really, the PU & PEM, they were the most numerous. The Russians ofcourse also made great use of German made scopes during the war, having purchased a great many in the mid 30's.

The Germans fielded the ZF41, Zielvier, Zielsechs & Zielacht by Zeiss & Hensoldt, Dialytan, Kaenel, Leica etc etc... as-well as later the ZF4, which was also produced in chzechoslovakia.