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Lost Battles?

Discussion in 'Western Europe 1943 - 1945' started by KodiakBeer, Jul 10, 2016.

  1. Kai-Petri

    Kai-Petri Kenraali

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    Was it Brest that was the only city with harbour that the Allied took? The other were losses.

    Personally(!) I think the timetable for Caen was, if I correctly recall, that it woulöd be taken on the first day. By capturing this area the Allied would have had remarkable view over the area and I woud dare say, they could have attack inlands in a week or less. Perhaps not, without Caen and the area around things were much harder to do.
     
  2. Terry D

    Terry D Well-Known Member

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    No Australian ground troops ever involved in the Italian campaign. And where and when did the evacuations you refer to happen?
     
  3. LRusso216

    LRusso216 Graybeard Staff Member

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    My father was in the Italian campaign from Salerno onward. While he mentioned being pinned down, he never said anything about having to leave the beach.

    While it isn't really a loss,Clark's assault on Rome for the glory allowed many of Kesselring's troops to escape and set up another defensive line.
     
  4. CAC

    CAC Ace of Spades

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    Sorry Terry, should of said Greece...
     
  5. Sheldrake

    Sheldrake Member

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    Depends on how you define "victory"

    It was always planned as a raid, so ownership of the battlefield meant nothing.

    The influence of Dieppe on D Day is quite well known. It shaped allied tactics and technology and lulled the Germans into overconfidence about the effectiveness of the Atlantic Wall.

    What is less well known about Dieppe is that Op Rutter and Jubilee really did influence then Eastern Front asnd take pressure from the Red Army. Hitler's directive in July anticipated that there would be a landing and he moved two panzer divisions, and four bomber groups to the Western Front from the East Front.

    It may have been a costly raid, but the end results helped the allies more than the Germans.

    The main issue with Dieppe is that the media wanted to call it something and on AM 20th August 1942 it looked like bad news.
     
  6. OhneGewehr

    OhneGewehr New Member

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    If Market Garden wasn't a loss than the Luftwaffe won the battle of Britain. They shot down many british aircrafts and damaged airfields and cities.

    This is "Western Europe 43-45", Dieppe and Weserübung?
    Weserübung even wasn't an allied defeat, the counterattack with the landings in Andalsnes etc. was a defeat except Narvik.
     
  7. harolds

    harolds Member

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    Thanks OG, I agree
     
  8. Kai-Petri

    Kai-Petri Kenraali

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    Do you consider Anzio a victory or loss? In the end the troops were helped out of the beaches but until...
     
  9. LRusso216

    LRusso216 Graybeard Staff Member

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    I think, like many battles, Anzio was not successful in achieving its objectives in the near term. In the long run however, it wound up contributing to the ultimate victory. We have the benefit of hindsight in making a judgment. At the time, I'm sure that the planners saw the invasion as less than successful.
     
  10. green slime

    green slime Member

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    Except the British could afford to lose those aircraft, while the LW could not, as evidenced by their chronic shortage of pilots and aircraft, which only got worse as the war wore on, in contrast to the British.

    In a punch-up, saying a blow was a failure, just because it wasn't the penultimate punch you'd hoped it would be, is a bit of a misnomer.
     
  11. OhneGewehr

    OhneGewehr New Member

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    Then every battle is an allied win for sure. Proof: they won at the end and it was a part of the war. The BoB was a failure because the Luftwaffe failed to wipe the RAF out of the sky which was a precondition for Operation Sealion.

    In Italy there were a lot of failed attacks against defensive german positions. How many times Monte Cassino was attacked?
     
  12. RichTO90

    RichTO90 Well-Known Member

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    Who "helped" them out of the beaches?
     
  13. Kai-Petri

    Kai-Petri Kenraali

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    Yes, but without help? Could they have made it out themselves?

    Anzio. 22 January-24 May 1944.

    For instance the first help failed: By February 2nd, the breakout had failed...

    On May 11th, 1944, the Allies started another attack on the Gustav Line. After previous failures, this attack was a success and the Allies broke through the Line on May 15th. From here they raced to Anzio but met little German resistance as many German soldiers had been withdrawn to Rome.

    -----------

    So actually it was the breakthrough of Gustav Line that let the men in Anzio free.
     
  14. RichTO90

    RichTO90 Well-Known Member

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    Which "first help" was that? The failure to break out from the beachhead was by the forces landed...so what "help" are you referring to?

    It is difficult for that to be actually so, since they were never prisoners. You might also wish to look more carefully at the course of DIADEM and BUFFALO and how they interacted.
     
  15. Kai-Petri

    Kai-Petri Kenraali

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    A counter-attack on the Allies at Anzio was ordered for January 28th, though this was postponed until February 1st to allow for further reinforcements to arrive.[SIZE=inherit]The only way out for the Allies at Anzio was to make a concerted breakout that was sustained. This breakout was to be combined with another all out assault on the Gustav Line by Allied forces in the south. The breakout from Anzio was to be initially spearheaded by three Ranger battalions – the 1st, 3rd and 4th – and their target was the village of Cisterna. Unknown to the Americans, 36 German battalions had gathered around Cisterna in preparation for their counter-attack against the Allies at Anzio. The nighttime movements of the Rangers had been seen by the Germans who waited until dawn for their attack. The Ranger units faced enormous odds including armoured units from the Hermann Goering Division. Not being equipped to fight off armoured vehicles, the Rangers attempted a withdrawal but men in the 1st and 3rd battalions took fearful casualties – of 767 men, only 6 returned to the Allied lines.[/SIZE][SIZE=inherit]By February 2nd, the breakout had failed and Allied forces were ordered to dig in.[/SIZE]
    http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/world-war-two/war-in-the-mediterranean-sea/the-anzio-landings/
    Sorry 1st feb. Seems like the Allied did attack the Gustav line all along or made an attempt to help the Anzio breakthrough men?? If not, why?
     
  16. RichTO90

    RichTO90 Well-Known Member

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    So the German counterattack was the help? :cool:

    Sorry, I could not resist.

    The problem with Anzio is it was ill-conceived from the beginning. The "supporting" attacks meant to draw German reserves to the Garigliano and Rapido were over by 22 January, leaving the Germans free to react as they saw fit to the landings. No, there were no significant supporting attacks except by the 34th ID north of Cassino beginning on the night of 29 January. The reason the Allies did not continue on the Garigliano-Rapido front is simple, they were burnt out. Both British divisions of X Corps were in bade shape and 7th Armoured Division was off to Blighty. The US 36th ID was ruined in its attack on the Rapido and took some weeks to recover. The 34th Division was the only unit, other than the newly arrived FEC (which Clark had no faith in) that was available and it could not generate sufficient weight in its attack to draw away significant units to it.

    This narrative you gave is odd, there was no real plans for a concerted Allied attack when the beachhead expansion began on the 27-28 January. The 1st and 3d Rangers led the advance by the 3d ID on Cisterna (the 4th Rangers were in reserve), but at the same time the British 1st Division was also advancing on Aprilia. Nor were there 36 German battalions at Cisterna (that is the rough count of infantry and armor battalions committed in total by the Germans to Anzio as a whole) or a heavy concentration of armor HG had possibly 7 Pz-III, 10 Pz-IV, 2 StuH, and 14 German and 2 Italian StuG, along with 18 sPaK and 1 sPaK (Sfl). Its infantry strength consisted of the two HG Schuetzen regiments, each with only one battalion, but essentially the entire artillery and Flak regiment were present. Of course, that was more than enough to handle the Rangers, the 504th PIR, and the two battalions of the 15th Infantry, which actually was what was committed to Cisterna. The whole of the 179th Infantry was holding the extended flank along the Mussolini Canal, while the 7th Infantry struck due north in an attempt to seize the hills west of Cisterna.

    By 30 January, the beachhead perimeter was over 30 miles long, with effectively two divisions in it (the 1st AD was incomplete and still arriving). There simply wasn't enough forces available to both protect the beachhead against a German attack while effectivly attacking outward...and every advance made the problem worse. It's not that the troops needed help, but Clark, Alexander, Churchill and company all needed help with their muddled thinking.
     
  17. Kai-Petri

    Kai-Petri Kenraali

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    https://books.google.fi/books?id=HP3-9NNz71sC&pg=PA242&lpg=PA242&dq=gustav+line+attacked+and+anzio&source=bl&ots=lCIosHUyLC&sig=xXx0Fmc2VhGTuMxIp8b8s7Yf3R0&hl=fi&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjJkqbWsajOAhVEDiwKHdNiBR84ChDoAQgYMAA#v=onepage&q=gustav%20line%20attacked%20and%20anzio&f=false

    -----------------------

    Kesselring failed in his counterattack attempt at Anzio, but the effort helped to create a strategic stalemate which was actually a victory for the Germans. From February to May, Kesselring managed to contain the Allies on both the Gustav Line and at the Anzio beachhead. Kesselring had predicted to Hitler, during the earlier debate with Rommel, that he could hold the Allies south of Rome through the winter. His efforts effectively held the Allies well into the spring.

    http://www.allworldwars.com/Kesselring-an-Analysis-of-the-German-Commander-at-Anzio-by-Teddy-Bitner.html
     
  18. RichTO90

    RichTO90 Well-Known Member

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    But was it his efforts or the Allied lack of strength? In either case, what does it have to do with the troops at Anzio requiring "help" to be "freed"? :salute:
     

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