Market Garden - Something controversial

These are the FACTS of the case and they are undisputable.

Prince Bernhard was a Bavarian German and former SS

Prince Bernhard advised on Market Garden.

Prince Bernhard was the first chairman of the Bilderberg Group which held its first meeting in Oosterbeek.scene of the bloodiest fighting.

Carrington stopped his tanks five miles from the Bridge at Arnhem.

Carrington was a chairman of Bilderberg after (not immediately) Prince Bernhard.

Carrington sat on his arse and won a Military Cross.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7oIlDTExMLo

 

I'm not British, but a quick look at Michael Meacher is enough for me to see that he thinks the US government is behind the 9/11 attack, so... he's a loon.

 

A BRIDGE NOT FAR
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=50ogHjrQFBE


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lKuOLWNe4g0

Burriss's brigade had faced a hail of bullets crossing the Waal and lost half the brigade to take the North side of the bridge.

Not to mention the Victoria Crosses being won at Arnhem http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tpg6h16k8eU

Carrington faced ONE anti tank gun with four tanks and some infantry and went yellow, Then again maybe there's more to this.

 

Meacher asked a question as to why the FACT that the Pakistan ISI had given $100,000 to Mohammad Atta was not considered important by the 911 Commission.

I agree.

 

A lot of nonsens :

1)Bernhard von Lippe-Bisterfeld was NOT Bavarian : your knowledge of German history is below the even elementary level

2) That Bernhard had a honorary rang in the SS is irrelevant

3)Proof that he advised on MG ?

4)The Bilderberg group (created 10 years after MG) is irrelevant for this topic

5) Proof that Carrington was sitting on his arse ?

 

Why would it be considered important ?

 

Please read the first post of this thread.

 

WHAT!!!!!!???????

This is so stupid I'm not going to bother answering.

 

Even at the H CH,this would result in a good laugh :that Atta received some money from the Pakistanese secret services,was not the business of the US,which is the reason why the 9//11 commission ignored the story .

May I also observe that by going totally of topic and spreading conspiracy stories,you make it very obvious for everyone that you have an agenda .

 

I ran out of salutes or there would be a lot more given to those who have replied here.

Roscoe, to look at your profile i would not expect the sort of comments you have been making. They are downright disgusting and offensive. Do you talk that way to the veterans down the Legion? It makes it very hard to respond to you in a civil manner.

You admit you understand there were real difficulties at the time but then fly off on bizarre tangents and start calling people cowards and yellow. You seem quite angry that anyone would "insult" a politician who is still alive to defend himself and has a national platform to do so, yet make ill-formed, badly expressed and highly offensive concrete assertions about someone decorated for bravery 70 years ago on the basis of a few unconnected "facts" you have copy and pasted from god knows where.

Please show the veterans the same respect you demand for those who agree with your position.

As you still seem to think capitals makes an argument RE-READ SAPPERS POSTS. You are rapidly heading towards the ignore button matey boy.

 

I have read Robert Kershaw's book and even met him on a few occasions. Kershew was a para and the fortunes of the airborne forces are understandably his focus.

It is easy, with the perfect information of hind sight to identify how things might have been different if only x had known several pieces of information hidden at the time. Watch the analysis of the replays of sports events. With slow motion replay and a a choice of camera positions criticism is easy.

Hollywood encourages us to think it right that every effort should have been made to relieve the paras behind enemy lines. However, the paras at Arnhem were not damsels in distress but soldiers whose job it was to drop behind enemy lines. Exactly how many men's lives would it be worth to risk to rescue others, and at what risk? Its a version of the dilemma faced in "Saving Private Ryan" - and why the plot of that film was utter nonsense. "Saving" a handful of Johnny Frost's men would have been a defeat if it had cost the grenadier Guards the kind of savaging meted out to 7 Armd Div at Villers Bocage or Task Force Worthington North of Falaise. .

The only way that it would have made sense to press on to Arnhem would have been had there been a likelihood of the Grenadier Guards and US Paras being able to 1) break through to Arnhem. 2) Capture the Arnhem Road Bridge intact from the Germans there. 3) Prevent the Germans from reoccupying the route from Armnhem to Nijmegen. and 4) enabling the XXX Corps to break through the Germans assembled under II SS Corps and on to Germany and ending the war. The US Paras who had just made the impossible assault over the river Waal had reason to believe in miracles. The officers of the Guards Division did not, and Peter Carrington just happened to be the man in lead tank who had to say no .

 

A lot of people gave their all to get to Arnhem, some of them their lives. We know this.

One person, who unfortunately was in a good position to effect an outcome, didn't do his utmost. He sat in his tank with the lid down for seventeen hours apparantly scared of a single anti-tank gun. Meanwhile Robert Cain was single handedly taking out Tiger Tanks with a hand held piece of junk.

There were only picket forces between Carrington and the bridge. The Germans said so.

This man went on to carve out a very successful career for himself. A lot of men who never left Arnhem didn't have that opportunity.

By the way my father was part of XXX Corps, he was a DR. I wish I could get his take on this. He saw action (and lost a few of his friends) crossing the Maas river. My father's grave has three Oak leaves on it, he was mentioned in dispatches three times. He did his duty, he didn't sit in his tank with the lid down for three quarters of day worrying about a single anti-tank gun.

 

Re-read the many rebuttals to this that have already been stated. You are not going to get any more out of me as this is clearly going nowhere and i find your comments too disgusting to read any more.

 

It would be good if you could put this to Robert Cain who was despatching Tiger Tanks single handedly.

 

Damn right it's going nowhere. Carrington sat on his arse whilst all those around him were losing their friends. Why don't we get an American take on this?

 

He said that it was an inside job:there are instititions for such people,as :Fuller (Massachusetts)

 

to me,while i have no power on this forum, i think that i might suggest that this thread may need to be suspended for a time so that everyone has a chance to cool down before tempers flare and regreatable things are posted.

 

Of course it wasn't the last time Carrington sat on his arse.

He was forced to resign over the Falklands Invasion.

I am able to type this to you now simply because the Argentine pilots chose to drop their bombs on another ship rather than mine.

 

Here's what was going on in Arnhem whilst Carrington was sat inside his tank for seventeen hours with his four Sherman M4s and his volunteer 82nd Airbourne infantry worrying about a single anti-tank gun

http://www.tubechop.com/watch/1752448

Enough said.

 

Tracking the original sites this little tale originated on is... interesting.
Conspiratorial sites attempt (once again) to link a future British Cabinet minister to what they see as a conspiratorial organisation with little to no evidence beyond speculation & assertion.

The Reiter SS, of which Bernhard was an honorary member, was little more than a prewar equestrian drinking club. His behaviour in relation to the Nazis beyond that honorary membership as a figure in European high society does not invite such easy criticism. If you want to operate in 1930s German business/society, there was a game to be played. That game led to some embarrassing connections later on, but many others had such embarrasing connections too, and didn't prove themselves to the allied war effort as well as Prince Bernhard later did,
Many Postwar NATO officers had Knights Crosses (Spiedel was NATO CiC...), so what?

Referencing Cain as an example of what the average soldier might have done is somewhat peculiar.
If an entire Army was made of Cains, shared his 'tank hatred', and could be in that apparent state of rage for the duration, Wars like WW2 might end in a week or so. They are not though.

As for the Blair reference. Him lying, if he did, about something is hardly a surprise. , though much as I hate to defend the man, I suspect this Torygraph article is more accurate on Bilderberg than a hundred other over-excited pages.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/7804197/The-Bilderberg-Group-fact-and-fantasy.html
Denis Healey a founding member! Shock! Horror! Doubtless his beachmaster role at Anzio was a plot too... or maybe not.
Healey: "To say we were striving for a one-world government is exaggerated, but not wholly unfair. Those of us in Bilderberg felt we couldn't go on forever fighting one another for nothing and killing people and rendering millions homeless. So we felt that a single community throughout the world would be a good thing."
A club. One with powerful members, but powerful people are allowed to join, or be invited to join, clubs. Such memberships might invite cynicism & suspicion, but cynicism & suspicion hardly form a real case for anything.
Bilderberg Participants, according to wiki.
It's a conspiracists wet dream...

The first half of the C20th was a complex time. So complex and so coloured by war/s & incredible political upheavals that it is easy to make mountains from molehills. Lots of eventually powerful people had unusual associations with peculiar things. That doesn't make them Illuminati, but it does make life easier for the cherry-picking conspiracist.

I'll sign up with the others who call conspiratorial nonsense on this.
I brushed up against a Bilderberg obsessive once. He accused me of all sorts of things for even light cynicism. It was really rather good fun.
Now I'm just off to bask under my Infra-red light. Prince Andrew's coming over for some grasshoppers and an earthworm or two later.

~A