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Market Garden - Something controversial

Discussion in 'WWII General' started by roscoe, Dec 16, 2013.

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urqh Tea drinking surrender monkey

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And he looks like me Poopy....

British Army 1939-1945 - World War II Tribute Video

urqh, Dec 19, 2013

#101
dbf Member WW2|ORG Editor

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The infantry unit which was to come up in support was 3rd Battalion Irish Guards, my father's unit. It had started the Normandy campaign with a borrowed rifle company which it handed over in Aug 44 to another infantry unit in GAD - that's 25% of it's fighting strength and it remained under strength despite reinforcements throughout the fighting in NWE, eventually having to suspend one company owing to lack of reinforcements. The week previous to Market Garden they'd taken Joe's Bridge and before that lost good men in close fighting in Belgium. It was my father's company which was at the sharp end with the tanks, for three days starting on 17th.

Carrington held the rank of Lieutenant, Temporary Captain at the time. His MC recommendation attached, endorsed by not only his own CO but Gwatkin, Adair, Horrocks, Dempsey and Monty.
View attachment 20059
That a Lt. is given so much credit for halting the entire GAD/30 Corps advance is more than peculiar. The implication also that he could have positioned himself to be present there in command, in the chosen troop at that precise moment, with advance knowledge that it would be a critical juncture in the operation and thereby have some effect on the success of Market Garden, is laughable.

Tony Jones, mentioned in an earlier post, was with the sapper Field Squadron attached to the GG armoured battalion. His friend Cantlay was also a sapper officer in the sister squadron attached to the 2nd Armoured Battalion Irish Guards/Irish Guards Battle Group. Cantlay had previously worked with both Grenadier and Coldstream armoured battalions in GAD at various points from Normandy onwards - let us not forget that they had landed in June 1944 and fought their way to Holland. Both he and Jones met Burriss post war and they discussed matters with him... apparently not without some disagreement on details.

Carrington is mentioned in Cantlay's interview on the IWM site, a full transcript of which can be found with the link below.
http://ww2talk.com/forums/topic/49835-william-gordon-cantlay-14-field-squadron-re-attached-gad/

Now we're not on the 19th. This is the afternoon of the 19th. They're trying to capture this bridge, they can't do it. Tony sends one of his half tracks with a Lance-Sergeant round to the left with some tanks to try and take the railway bridge which is on the left hand side and downstream. They get shot up and in fact Lance -Sergeant Berry is killed. [1] Tony remains with the main group. After very hard fighting and some good fighting by both the 1st Battalion of the Grenadiers who lost some good people and the battalion of the Airborne, they get to the end of the bridge but they still can't get across the bridge. So the Airborne decided that the only way that they can do this is to put a water assault downstream and come in from the other side. This has been planned for some time because of the difficulties of getting the bridge but the difficulty of getting the Assault boats up this single Centre Line has been enormous and they haven't arrived till fairly late on the afternoon of the 20th.

Now by this time the south side of the bridge has been taken but not the river, not the crossing. The Americans are supported by the Irish, whom I told you were round on the left hand side and the Irish lined the embankment and fired smoke and supporting fire for the Americans rowing themselves across. In fact my Troop was down to ferry them across and that's one reason why I was round there but they decided they would do it themselves for which I am very truly grateful. Nevertheless they did it themselves and they did a splendid job.

I was very lucky one time running into Morris - some peculiar name - Burrell Moffett I think his name was, or Burris Moffett [T. Moffatt Burriss], some sort of name, who was the chappie who was the leading Company Commander crossing that particular thing on that particular assault. We met up with him on one of these visits to Arnhem with Tony Jones and they had a long argument as to who had cut the wires on the bridge. Because when the notice was given that the Americans were at the far side of the bridge, the tanks dashed across.

Now Tony's memory of this briefing is - it was with Lord Carrington who was I think the Second in Command of that particular lead Squadron of Grenadier tanks. Sergeant Robertson or Robinson as the case may be, pointed out that this should be the job of an Officer. In fact he was told: Not in the Grenadier Guards. Tony remembers this quite well.

Anyway off shot Sergeant Robertson, or Sergeant Robinson [3], Robertson I think it was, with his two tanks belting across and Tony was briefed to follow with his half Section to cut the wires. Off they went and they bounced their way through a roadblock of concrete blocks which I think had been there for another purpose but which were there. Tony says he threw about half a dozen Teller mines into the drink and he got started on cutting the wires. This is of course where our friend from the American Army says he was cutting wires but I'm sure there were plenty of wires for him to cut, signal wires and all sorts of wires. The reason why it went up was nae because they cut the wires it was that they decided that they could nae blow it, or something went wrong. Anyway.

The other story is of course that when Robertson got over the bridge with one tank - because one tank had been damaged - they stopped under the railway. Now as I said the railway was down below and the road bridge was here, so the railway crossed over and the road passed under this railway bridge. So he got as far as this railway bridge which I suppose was about a couple of miles up and they stopped. The Americans were quite excited because they wanted the tanks to go on. Now remember the Grenadiers had been fighting quite hard to clear this bridge, they'd taken a lot of casualties, the tanks had taken casualties and these two tanks were on the right side of the river with no infantry to follow. But the Americans said but Well we'll put our people on. This has always been the argument.

But remember we're now on the evening of the 20th of September and eh I know now that our friend Frost had surrendered on the afternoon of the 20th of September and he was - they were taken off on the afternoon of the 20th of September. So the bridge had gone at Arnhem and even if it hadn't, the purpose of belting up there with a couple of tanks or …

[continues on next reel]

[continues from previous Reel]

So the purpose of getting to the bridge had probably gone. We certainly weren't going to get to the Zuider Zee. But at that particular stage of the game the remainder of the 1st Airborne were having a bit of a battle around about Hartenstein, I think it was called, on the other side, but they were much further downstream, opposite or very near to the Heveadorp ferry near a place called Driel.

Now the next day which is the 21st the Irish were in lead again and we again crossed over this bridge - well we didn't cross it till the early morning of the 21st and we'd gone about eh, oh i don't know, two or three miles, rounded a corner and the first three lead tanks were brewed up. Bang, bang, bang. We could see the Polish airdrop taking place and they were taking place to the left round about Driel. So they were dropping to support the Airborne on the other side of the river. But we were on this embanked road with polder on left and right, and nothing, no cover whatsoever and we turned round this bend and the first three lead tanks were burning. So we stopped and we got out, the Squadron Leader got out into the ditch, I got out into the ditch. I'd picked up an American Garand I think it's called, which is a self-loading rifle. So i had a shot or two at a farm which I could see just over the field, which produced an immediate response of a burst of Spandau, at which I was asked to desist, which I did very quickly.

We stayed there for a bit and then we moved back a bit - not very much - just a yard or two to get out of the way and whilst we were there the half track containing the RAF Controller for the Typhoons was there. Now, I can't remember the Typhoons being brought into action, at all. I don't know whether they were or they weren't, maybe the weather wasn't good, maybe they couldn't fly by at least a fella was there. I was talking to him and I heard a barrel of incoming mortars on its way and I knew this lot was coming close. So in two seconds flat I was under the tank but he wasn't aware of these sort of things, so he was left standing. Fortunately he wasn't hurt but he decide he was a bit too close to the sharp end and withdrew. Very wise.

Anyway we stayed there. My only memory of that particular area is that - we moved off the side. My only memory of that particular area is that the 25-pounders were starting to fire and there was one gun was dropping short - there's always one bloody gun dropping short - and he was dropping into our laager, so people were getting a bit excited about this. But anyway, we stayed there and we had nothing more to do with regard to the relief of the Airborne Division. The Armoured Division was drawn back and we were drawn back to the side.
Click to expand...

To counter this 'as the crow flies' nonsense and inject a little bit of reality about the last stretch to Arnhem, this from the perspective of an infantryman: my father, whose Section by then (normally 8-10 men) consisted of himself and his No. 2 on the Bren ...

And, no I don't think we were on the tanks, they didn't let us get on the tanks, they'd have lost too many men. I think we had to tramp up to the position, you know. And it was off the road. It was, I thought it was an autobahn that they were building, but I think afterwards somebody said no, it was a railway line, and the banks you know, were [gestures steep sides on embanked road] on both sides.

So how it happened was, we had to go right along it to the positions and we [No 1 Coy] ended up on the front of the bank and the rest of HeadQuarters Company, HQs - cooks - on the other side, you see. Well the Germans were throwing in - if I can remember right - at least 3 counter-attacks every day, trying to push us out, and keep us away from Arnhem. Arnhem was only about 6 miles from there. And the tanks, they lined up on top of the railway embankment you see, about 20 yards apart and the guns [points up], well they blasted every counter-attack that came in. We never had to, never had to use the Bren gun, they [the Germans] never got closer than ... a hundred yards. They got cut to pieces, (by) the tanks.

And they [the Germans] had guns further back, fields guns and everything, and now and then they opened with them, you know. And a lot of them went whizzing over our heads and landing and landing at the back, which we said “HQ Company is getting it“. Grant was there too. But the odd one landed you know.

The Germans were shelling, oh aye and the odd one was thumping into the front bank.

So I needed a smoke badly. So I said “Alright.” and I got out, crawled over to Joe’s trench, got into it. I’d a 20 packet with me, opened it up got a cigarette out and I gave him one and he says “How do you smoke it?”

So we got the box of matches and we lit up. I can’t remember how much we smoked, maybe half a cigarette and then we heard this thing coming. We thought it was [like] the Tower of London. The sound of it, the scream of it, we hit the deck, there was an awful explosion right near us. It was a single shell. And we looked up and looked out then and there was a big pall of smoke covering my trench. My Bren gun was in two pieces - shrapnel had cut the butt off.

Each company took turns to be up at the front, usually 3 days and then were pulled back for rest; the changeover was usually completed at night [20/21st]. But then they pulled us out and it was only a Company at a time, they couldn't get a whole Battalion up, not on that road. We tramped back in the dark at night time and another company took over and then we went down the road about five miles.

Then there was an orchard on the left. We got into the orchard and we dug trenches there. It was just at the side of the road. And the tanks had come back when another squadron took over and the tanks were lined up at the side of the road.

And eh, some carriers came up and stopped next to us you see. And I think I saw him first, but anyway Sean came over to me and we shook hands. I says, “I didn’t know you were with the Carriers now.” And he says, “Aye, we’re heading up in a minute” They were bringing up ammunition and stuff you know. Anyway, he said he had no smokes and just that morning I’d got some Gallaher Blues from my mother; she’d sent them over for me. So I had a hundred or so, and eh, I took out a packet and gave them to him and we had a smoke. Next thing they were told to get in and go. We shook hands and I told him to be careful. Last I saw was them heading up the road. I can’t remember if it was 5 or 10 minutes later, but it wasn’t very long afterwards. There was this big explosion, I could see the smoke coming up and I remember thinking to myself, “God I hope that wasn’t Sean.”

Later on some of the carriers came back and one of them stopped near me. So I went over and asked about Sean and the fella told me that he’d been killed ... and eh, that hit me awful hard. They were going to bury them in a field by the road. There was a few others from the 2nd Battalion had got killed too and their bodies were in a, in a bad way. Tanks ‘brewing up’ you know. But I said I’d do it and Henry and me dug graves for them all.
Click to expand...

Another person who was there:

Wednesday 20th
We stayed at Malden while fierce fighting took place for the possession of Nijmegen. There was no Tac/R as the weather was too poor. We were, however, strafed by a daring F.W.190 who was subsequently shot down by light flak. With a ceiling of about 300 feet an 1/2 mile visibility, the Guards Armoured Division asked for fighter cover. It was not forthcoming.

Thursday 21st
... we crossed the Nijmegen Bridge under mortar fire to operate with the Irish Guards for a push to Arnhem. They were held up on the main road by dug in A/T guns which had already destroyed several of their tanks about 1/2 mile up the road. At his critical moment my V.H.F. set failed and we were deprived of Air support. S/Ldr returned to Div. H.Q. to collect another. This was also u/s. I submitted the guns to Army as a target for an uncontrolled strike but was informed that flying was cancelled for the day owing [to] Airborne Supply operations. In the meantime two Me.109s were carrying out a reconnaissance up and down the road. It appeared to be an Arty/R as the German guns began ranging on the road. For the next 2 1/2 hours we were subjected to continual shelling and mortaring. It was subsequently decided to withdraw the armoured thrust and send in the infantry. I was ordered to return to 30 Corps H.Q. My V.H.F. operator (R.A.F.) was sent to a Rest Camp suffering from ‘exhaustion’.

Friday 22nd
This day was spent at 30 Corps H.Q. I obtained some startling information from Tac/R sorties regarding the cutting of the supply road between Uden and Veghel.
Click to expand...

I felt very strongly that the failure to reach Arnhem had very probably been due to failures in controlling air support of ground troops. Had the V.H.F. set in my car been serviceable on Thursday 21st September, it might well be that the Guards Armoured would have broken through again as they did at Valkenswaard. Again, had our fighters not been grounded to avoid identification mishaps when Air Supplies were being dropped, much fuller support might have been given to our armour. Finally, this report was written on Tuesday 26th September - it has not been edited with the benefit of ‘hindsight’, and faithfully sets out my immediate recollections.
Click to expand...

The thoughts of an Irish Guards Lieutenant, in the Armoured Bn:

Just about that time, I believe, I looked toward the railway bridge and could quite clearly see Germans running over the railway bridge, escaping from Nijmegen. There seemed to be hundreds of them on the bridge, scrambling across, stumbling and getting up and stumbling again. I don’t remember whether I shouted to Major Tyler or not. I know there was absolutely no question in my mind that they were Germans. They seemed confused and panic-stricken. I remember at first being worried they might outflank the Americans, but they didn’t seem armed or at least not armed for combat.

Major Tyler called over the wireless and told us not to fire. I was dumbfounded. The report was they were Americans! They certainly were not.

Gorman did not argue. He did not object. He did not plead to be allowed to shoot the Germans, who would have been sitting ducks.

“In the Guards, when you’re given an order not to fire, you don’t fire. There is no argument. You don’t fire.”

...

They moved across the river the next day as the Irish again led the spearhead north. His squadron did not lead the group, but despite this he again felt an almost overwhelming sense of frustration at the delay.

They had, he knew, gotten across the bridge the night before. Why didn’t they drive on, he asked himself? If not at night, then why not the first thing Thursday morning? Instead, they had stayed put until early afternoon, losing several hours of daylight.

It was obvious to him with the first look that this was certainly not tank country “with its bloody great raised dikes.” He wondered why the infantry of the 43rd Division wasn’t sent forward.

When the attack finally did come, the support seemed inadequate to him. “There were a few desultory shots fired and that was that. There seemed to be Typhoons above but they didn’t come in. Suddenly, everything seemed to stop and I realized to my horror that we had lost our momentum. We had ran out of steam within sight of our final objective.”

He remembers they were stopped near some greenhouse on the road to Arnhem. His personal spirits were low. “We had gone from great elation to morbid despair. We had come all the way from Normandy. We had taken Brussels and fought ourselves halfway through Holland to seize the Nijmegen Bridge. And now we were stopped.”

He remembers being by the greenhouse when the 43rd Division started to infiltrate through the Irish to take over the attack north.

“I was near my tank when a platoon, led by a young officer came past. They didn’t seem to be in much of a hurry to me, but they passed by and out of sight. A while later, they came tearing back and a young infantry officer shouted out, in effect, that the fire ahead was so thick nothing could get through. I am of the opinion that they didn’t try hard enough. Everything had collapsed.”
Click to expand...

What the GAD could not achieve at the end of 4 days' fighting, neither could a 'fresh' Division.

[hr]

The above is for others reading the thread, it might be of interest.

Roscoe can't or won't explain himself at all. Firstly he places facts side by side about certain personalities and expects everyone to merely accept that they have any relevance to the other. Then he just repeats the same unexplained rejections to any counter, no matter the sources. It's his posts which are hollow: I've seen nothing apart from his stated opinion, and linking to a film scene.

If indeed the purpose of this thread was to engage, get people round to his way of thinking, he's not done a great job so far. He asks questions, the responses are rejected, but he himself gives no real answers. The text in the original post - are they his own words quoted, or those of someone else, does anyone know?

Will Roscoe say why he thinks that the 3 points he mentioned ended up with the outcome they did? Why Carrington stopped, Burriss' offer was rejected etc, etc? Despite Urqh's invitation, we haven't heard his explanation/reasoning yet, just the condescending repetition of unconnected 'facts' by a person trying to make out they know something the rest of us don't.
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dbf, Dec 19, 2013

#102

green slime, roscoe, Kai-Petri and 10 others like this.
von Poop Waspish

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i was sort of hoping you might do that, D.

I retract my comment about 'extrapolating anything of worth' being impossible.
If this has triggered such solid (and apparently slightly annoyed :lol: ) nuggets like the above and some of the other reasonable & backed-up bits of actual history added, then there has at least been a grain of worth.
To put it bluntly, stuff like that cacks all over conspiracist nonsense. We might actually learn something from it...

Any more assertions, Roscoe?
I personally think people have answered all the WW2 angles quite nicely. Though maybe that's just me... and the Lizards... and I'm obviously 'not ready for this'...

It's only the Internet...

von Poop, Dec 19, 2013

#103
jimmytwohand New Member

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Damn fine post dbf, damn fine. Not only restrained given the circumstances but bloody informative. Stands rereading a good few times, felt moved to comment as a "like this" didn't seem appropriately proportionate to the obvious effort that has gone into it.

jimmytwohand, Dec 19, 2013

#104
lwd Ace

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belasar said:

..., and until they invent smell-o-internet, your bathing practice's are your business.
Click to expand...

I really didn't need that mental image right now (and by right now I mean any time this millenium).

lwd, Dec 19, 2013

#105
roscoe Guest

Now LISTEN to the testimony of Moffat Burriss , After the Robert Redford piece.

Hanzel says there were only picket forces between the Nijmegen bridge and the Arnhem bridge.

His artilliery map confirms what he says. About 60 troops maximum.

The Polish paratroopers were at Driel on the south side of the Rhine.

Something else I wanted to say was.

How come the Germans could fly air cover but the allies couldn't?

Can I just say that I'm not the only person who thinks there's something wrong here.

I haven't broached in detail upon what Hibbert has to say. Hibbert was In charge of the troops holding the northern side of Arnhem bridge. Johnny Frost had been wounded. Hibbert knew that there were routes open to bridge. Hibbert was only a Major and no Brigadier was going to take suggestions from a mere Major even though he was in charge of a key position.

A Bridge NOT Far

Historian Richard Holmes

roscoe, Dec 19, 2013

#106
jimmytwohand New Member

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That testimony seems to be edited excerpts from a radio show. Can we view the whole transcript anywhere to see what may have been snipped? Who did the snipping? Those reserves aside i cant see how that really supports your position. Ill transcribe the parts i found interesting seeing as you didnt bother. Please do the same as i'm obviously missing what you hear.

From Moffatt Burriss youtube video:

"Carrington said his job was to take the bridge and hold it until further orders. That was not what Horrocks told us the orders would be and so we were very very frustrated sitting there all night. We know what it was like for paratroopers to fight tiger tanks and it is not a comfortable feeling so we had a great deal of passion for the British troops that were being mauled by the tiger tanks. To send 4 tanks across when he had an entire corps is beyond belief.... there should have been a full force of them going across the bridge and heading for Arnhem."
Click to expand...

Is that an indictment on Carrington or Horrocks?

He goes on to note the difference in fighting styles (airborne much more aggressive). He also seems to be talking about saving the troops, not taking the bridge/ furthering the objectives of the operation.

There was enormous fighting before the bridge crossing and Nijmegen was going up in flames but i would say that 82nd airborne and XXX Corps should have been able to reform and refuel and get across the bridge in an hours time, but there again it didnt happen. I never heard any explanation for why this might be that satisfied me ..... other than the fact that they said we only had 4 tanks ready to go and the others were in traffic jams back in nijmegen and getting fuel and ammunition and so forth, that and the fact that the roads were eleveatd and the tanks couldnt get off the road and that they would just be targets for the german anti tank gun, so they needed to get them softened up before they moved on. They knew we only had a matter of a few hours to get to Arnhem so why they delaed is beyond me.
Click to expand...

He doesnt say why he doesnt find that convincing. I have to say, i do. Those all sound like plausible problems. You said earlier that you did too. What has changed your mind?

He then talks about threatening to shoot Carrington etc....

"I may have been too hard on Carrington if his orders were to cross the bridge and hold it til further orders. Thats what i have heard. Whether that is authentic or not i dont know."
Click to expand...

You seem to know differently Roscoe, please provide your evidence to support your concrete statements of FACT.

Ive tried to find references to this map you mention as i do not have Kershaw's book. Can't find this Hassel/Hanzel character though.Did Hassel/Hanzel give this map to Carrington at the time?Im assumming he did otherwise how the heck is a German map published in a book in 2010 (ref amazon, the cover seems to be the same as the one you posted) supposed to help?

Not sure about the air cover tbh. It is not unknown for weather conditions to be different in different places though, say between different airfields? Is this an honest question or are you expecting a conclusion to be drawn from this?

jimmytwohand, Dec 20, 2013

#107

dbf and belasar like this.
roscoe Guest

Seems nobody wanted to comment on this. http://publicintelligence.net/1975-bilderberg-meeting-participant-list/

At that meeting in 1975 in Turkey (about two thirds down in the list) was one Margaret Hilda Thatcher.

The Chairman was Prince Bernhard.

Also at that meeting was

Denis Healey

Andrew Knight - News Corporation -

AND

Zbigniew Brzezinski - THE MAN WHO CREATED AL QAEDA

How do we know?

HE SAID SO IN HIS BOOK

http://www.takeoverworld.info/Grand_Chessboard.pdf

roscoe, Dec 20, 2013

#108
jimmytwohand New Member

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Like has already been mentioned, if you want to discuss that stuff open a thread in the stump. You will have takers. Unless you are arguing that Carrington had access to time travel i fail to see the relevance. Did you read the part where it says the infomation is unofficial and may contain inaccuracies?

jimmytwohand, Dec 20, 2013

#109

dbf and George Patton like this.
Owen O

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roscoe said:

Seems nobody wanted to comment on this. http://publicintelligence.net/1975-bilderberg-meeting-participant-list/

At that meeting in 1975 in Turkey (about two thirds down in the list) was one Margaret Hilda Thatcher.

The Chairman was Prince Bernhard.

Also at that meeting was

Denis Healey
Click to expand...

Ah now we know why the Anzio landings got bogged now, Denis Healey was there .
Therefore that was another Bilderberg plot.

why am I wasting my time on this thread, cos I'm feeling a bit narked & need some light relief.
hohoho Merry Christmas.

Owen, Dec 20, 2013

#110
O.M.A. Active Member

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Hi roscoe, nice thread, enjoying it muchly with popcorn.

You signature says you are a war artist, I like war art, do you have anything to share with us?

I am the most default Rogue of all.
Not all

O.M.A., Dec 20, 2013

#111
jimmytwohand New Member

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Might be best in a different thread mate, think we are cramming enough into this one as it is.

jimmytwohand, Dec 20, 2013

#112
von Poop Waspish

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I like the randomness. it tastes like peaches.

Can't get trashed on every original assertion, Roscoe, and then just move onto 'Market Garden in general', as you seem to want to.
We know it's an op. with controversies, controversies which have been done to death on far better grounds than yours.

On the other guff; lets play the conspiracist connections game.
It's a very easy game after all.

Take a near random group of personalities, particularly those with power of some sort, or an esoteric or privileged/inherited background.

Establish a LINK between them, no matter how tenuous.

Blow that tenuous link out of all proportion, throwing in a healthy dose of faux gravitas & claims to HIDDEN KNOWLEDGE.

Defend the theory against all criticism using a well-established rule that anyone who queries THE CONSPIRACY is obviously a part of THE CONSPIRACY, or an ill-informed STOOGE thereof.

Keep it just confusing enough.

Use lots of random Capitalisation. Got to have the CAPITALS. It makes things look heart-felt, as any fule kno.
6a: mention MK ULTRA, just for good measure.

Hitler was an AUSTRIAN.
Prince Philip was a GREEK (sort of).
The GREEKS allied with the SERBS in 1913.
Prince Philip attended Bilderberg.
SERBIA had a bit of bother with ETHNIC CLEANSING.
Greece & the UK are NATO countries.

QED: Philip used his Greek & Bilderberg connections to carry out a borderline recreation of Adolf's (senior Lizard) plans at Omarska etc. in the 90s.
After this plan was enabled, Austria was finally allowed to attend Bilderberg in the 00s. IMAGINE THAT!
The real power here is GREECE, who have a secret agenda of BALKAN unification under the Greek Orthodox Church. Their recent financial troubles are merely a plot by the many EU functionaries who have attended Bilderberg to destabilise the region further and precipitate a new war in the area, so that Prince Philip, with the support of NATO, and with his new Austrian/Hitlerian line of information can become Balkan Emperor (obviously a handy central-european jumping-off point for when his Wife and her Lizard masters initiate the final plan for overt domination).
See MK ULTRA for assorted vague and handily hard-to-substantiate references.

The really unnerving thing isn't that such arse like the above really does get concocted in the first place, it's that people run with it.
The Internet has been the single biggest boon to conspiratorial arse-gravy since Crowley bought Thelema.

Obviously, I'm only an amateur at the game. Check out this piece of advanced mentalism from a true master which a mate sent the other day. It has everything; incredible misconceptions, blatant lacks of simple knowledge, faux gravitas & that essential aspect of 'so f-ing what?' for any passing browser:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cX_9sOEenFs

And as for your Bilderberg attendance list.
Yes, we know, I've been using the Wiki listing since first joining the thread. Who knew Wiki was such a hard to access repository of secret knowledge.
Oh... hang on...

Now tell us more about David Irving, and why you apparently think he's great?
Any slight issues with his output, or is it all sound as a pound?
It's only the Internet...

von Poop, Dec 20, 2013

#113
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Roscoe,

For the record do you believe that Carrington stopped because of some conspiracy, most of your posts hint at it but you never actually say it. When challenged you either call him a coward or come up with spurious proof like the SS maps at the time show there were no troops between him and the bridge at Arnhem (maps which I'm led to believe the SS weren't showing him unless you prove different).

So straight answer to a straight question please.

People of every colour marching side by side
Marching cross these fields where a million fascists died
You're bound to lose, you fascists are bound to lose

ptimms, Dec 20, 2013

#114

roscoe likes this.
LJAd Well-Known Member

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Von Poop said:

I like the randomness. it tastes like peaches.

Can't get trashed on every original assertion, Roscoe, and then just move onto 'Market Garden in general', as you seem to want to.
We know it's an op. with controversies, controversies which have been done to death on far better grounds than yours.

On the other guff; lets play the conspiracist connections game.
It's a very easy game after all.

Take a near random group of personalities, particularly those with power of some sort, or an esoteric or privileged/inherited background.

Establish a LINK between them, no matter how tenuous.

Blow that tenuous link out of all proportion, throwing in a healthy dose of faux gravitas & claims to HIDDEN KNOWLEDGE.

Defend the theory against all criticism using a well-established rule that anyone who queries THE CONSPIRACY is obviously a part of THE CONSPIRACY, or an ill-informed STOOGE thereof.

Keep it just confusing enough.

Use lots of random Capitalisation. Got to have the CAPITALS. It makes things look heart-felt, as any fule kno.
6a: mention MK ULTRA, just for good measure.

Hitler was an AUSTRIAN.
Prince Philip was a GREEK (sort of).
The GREEKS allied with the SERBS in 1913.
Prince Philip attended Bilderberg.
SERBIA had a bit of bother with ETHNIC CLEANSING.
Greece & the UK are NATO countries.

QED: Philip used his Greek & Bilderberg connections to carry out a borderline recreation of Adolf's (senior Lizard) plans at Omarska etc. in the 90s.
After this plan was enabled, Austria was finally allowed to attend Bilderberg in the 00s. IMAGINE THAT!
The real power here is GREECE, who have a secret agenda of BALKAN unification under the Greek Orthodox Church. Their recent financial troubles are merely a plot by the many EU functionaries who have attended Bilderberg to destabilise the region further and precipitate a new war in the area, so that Prince Philip, with the support of NATO, and with his new Austrian/Hitlerian line of information can become Balkan Emperor (obviously a handy central-european jumping-off point for when his Wife and her Lizard masters initiate the final plan for overt domination).
See MK ULTRA for assorted vague and handily hard-to-substantiate references.

The really unnerving thing isn't that such arse like the above really does get concocted in the first place, it's that people run with it.
The Internet has been the single biggest boon to conspiratorial arse-gravy since Crowley bought Thelema.

Obviously, I'm only an amateur at the game. Check out this piece of advanced mentalism from a true master which a mate sent the other day. It has everything; incredible misconceptions, blatant lacks of simple knowledge, faux gravitas & that essential aspect of 'so f-ing what?' for any passing browser:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cX_9sOEenFs

And as for your Bilderberg attendance list.
Yes, we know, I've been using the Wiki listing since first joining the thread. Who knew Wiki was such a hard to access repository of secret knowledge.
Oh... hang on...

Now tell us more about David Irving, and why you apparently think he's great?
Any slight issues with his output, or is it all sound as a pound?
Click to expand...

Nice,but I have seen better from Webster Tarpley.
LJAd, Dec 20, 2013

#115
urqh Tea drinking surrender monkey

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I of course am a member of the Bilderberg group. Was invited by my step father Dennis Healey. My brother though was blackballed...Dennis got me in at the time of the Royal Navy carrier debate. He wanted reasons from the Navy board to give them the carriers that they wanted. It was not difficult. But the Sea lords cocked up and ended up with through deck cruisers. Not too bad but not first choice. The reason this happened was because I was infiltrated to the Sea lords smoking room in Whitehall as a steward...a first class steward I was too....I even earned the title barsteward from one scource...and very saucy that sailor was too...But no, but yes, but no I digress...I was given the secret handshake....and initiated via Jimmy Parrot Face Davies....I'm sick sick sick up to here fame....And nearly caught bird flu. Anyway back to the story...Builderburk And John Majors dad..a right royal clown...got me in the room...We were of the opinion the Navy was far too gung ho on keeping Commonwealth ties, and of course we wanted world wide administrative powers. Think on too...my sister was also the cause of the TSR 2 fiasco....she was a biggerburk sex temptress...We sorted out those RAF types too...Wanted to keep out in Empire bases and keep the old aircraft out of the rain..wanted them labled strategic and hidden away for private use...Which is why the Bilderburg phantom sold well later thru the world arms sales...my sis slept with Air commodore...pegasus Vilheim the fourth of the Dutch air force liason mission. Missionary acomplished there then.
The last jig in the saw was my nephew Alan...He was another bastard son of Dennis...sorry, stepson..The army of course wanted to stay in Germany for ever....The Dutch royal family being inherent Nazi's...sorry world wide administration councilors...He managed to infiltrate the Berlin Signals establishment...General...4 star...Caruthers of the Guards being second in command BAOR and assistan Nato secretary was compomised with Alan...and a Salmon sandwich at A Shell New years eve party in Potsdam. Hence no tanks, no Baor, and a worldwide police force under the glourious Duke Of Edinboro....Bloody Marvellous.

British Army 1939-1945 - World War II Tribute Video

urqh, Dec 20, 2013

#116
von Poop Waspish

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LJAd said:

Nice,but I have seen better from Webster Tarpley.
Click to expand...

I just Googled him.
Really wish I hadn't.

urqh said:

I of course am a member of the Bilderberg group. Was invited by my step father Dennis Healey. My brother though was blackballed...Dennis got me in at the time of the Royal Navy carrier debate. He wanted reasons from the Navy board to give them the carriers that they wanted. It was not difficult. But the Sea lords cocked up and ended up with through deck cruisers. Not too bad but not first choice. The reason this happened was because I was infiltrated to the Sea lords smoking room in Whitehall as a steward...a first class steward I was too....I even earned the title barsteward from one scource...and very saucy that sailor was too...But no, but yes, but no I digress...I was given the secret handshake....and initiated via Jimmy Parrot Face Davies....I'm sick sick sick up to here fame....And nearly caught bird flu. Anyway back to the story...Builderburk And John Majors dad..a right royal clown...got me in the room...We were of the opinion the Navy was far too gung ho on keeping Commonwealth ties, and of course we wanted world wide administrative powers. Think on too...my sister was also the cause of the TSR 2 fiasco....she was a biggerburk sex temptress...We sorted out those RAF types too...Wanted to keep out in Empire bases and keep the old aircraft out of the rain..wanted them labled strategic and hidden away for private use...Which is why the Bilderburg phantom sold well later thru the world arms sales...my sis slept with Air commodore...pegasus Vilheim the fourth of the Dutch air force liason mission. Missionary acomplished there then.
The last jig in the saw was my nephew Alan...He was another bastard son of Dennis...sorry, stepson..The army of course wanted to stay in Germany for ever....The Dutch royal family being inherent Nazi's...sorry world wide administration councilors...He managed to infiltrate the Berlin Signals establishment...General...4 star...Caruthers of the Guards being second in command BAOR and assistan Nato secretary was compomised with Alan...and a Salmon sandwich at A Shell New years eve party in Potsdam. Hence no tanks, no Baor, and a worldwide police force under the glourious Duke Of Edinboro....Bloody Marvellous.
Click to expand...

That, Sir, is playing the game.
Including TSR2 a master-stroke among a military history audience.
Well played.

I expect to see something similar on Icke very soon.

It's only the Internet...

von Poop, Dec 20, 2013

#117
von Poop Waspish

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Argh!

116 replies

1,116 views

Click to expand...

Coincidence?
Or something more... sinister?
Numerology & the kabbalah may come into play.
It's only the Internet...

von Poop, Dec 20, 2013

#118
LJAd Well-Known Member

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Von Poop said:

I just Googled him.
Really wish I hadn't.
Click to expand...

You ain't see nothing yet :Roscoe is only an amateur :wait till the grandmaster of the conspirationalists will honour us with his visite ,the man who is speaking about the Historian Webster Tarpley .. For the moment,he is haunting on the Armchair General site..

LJAd, Dec 20, 2013

#119
Slipdigit Good Ol' Boy Staff Member WW2|ORG Editor

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LJAd said:

You ain't see nothing yet :Roscoe is only an amateur :wait till the grandmaster of the conspirationalists will honour us with his visite ,the man who is speaking about the Historian Webster Tarpley .. For the moment,he is haunting on the Armchair General site..
Click to expand...

Associated with Lyndon LaRouche...all I needed to see.

Y'all please alert me if that...person...shows up here.

Best Regards,
Jeff

Old Hickory Recon, Memories of the 30th Infantry Division, 1943-1945 Kindle

Slipdigit, Dec 20, 2013

#120

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