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MAY 16TH 1943 WARSAW POLAND / THE SS

Discussion in 'Winter and Continuation Wars' started by WALT, May 16, 2002.

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  1. WALT

    WALT Member

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    ON THIS DATE IN 1943 THE SS BLOW UP THE SYNAGOGUE IN WARSAW POLAND.....THE SS COMMANDER "STROOP" BRAGS OF THE KILLING OF 14,OOO JEWS IN THE WARSAW GETTO, AND 40,000 MORE HAVE BEEN SENT TO "TREBLINKA"
     
  2. C.Evans

    C.Evans Expert

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    Just proves that there are monster murderers in EVERY Army. :(
     
  3. Yan

    Yan Member

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    I don't understand, can you rephrase this?
     
  4. C.Evans

    C.Evans Expert

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    Sure thing.

    I said (in other words of course) that not only a few German soldiers committed war crimes, but that Russian some American--Polish--British etx--a few men of these and every other army--at one time or another--did commit war crimes. Germany did not have a monopoly on them. ;) Hope this helps?

    [ 24 May 2002, 03:34 PM: Message edited by: C.Evans ]
     
  5. WALT

    WALT Member

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    Hello Carl...I dont agree.(respecfully) We have sort of talked about this before, but I would like to clarify my opinion on a couple of things. First, I concede that their were many men of all Countrys that were good and Honerble men, who were fighting for their Nation. I also concede that their is absolutly nothing wrong with studying history, weapons, uniforms of the Axis Poweres. As a matter of fact Im very interested in the Japanese, and what got them into the War, and how the pre-war Government worked.Etc....I think so far we are on the same page...But I think it is unfair to say that all the belidgerants of World War two were all equell in committing War crimes. On a small scale, perhaps this is trure, because Soldiers did committ crimes of one sort or another...But the Axis Powers(Im talking about the Governments policys, not indevidgial soldiers)were responcable for the muder of Millions of inocent people. The Japanese killed around 150,000 men, wemon, and children in Nanking alone. They took hundreds of captured Chinese solders with their hands tied, and used them for bayonet practice. They killed 10,000 cevilians when they withdrew from Manilia, even tho it had been declaired an open City.You know the rest of the story......The Germans were the ones who sent millions to the death camps.....I dont recall any Allied Country doing any of the above. To lump all the Combatants togeather, and put them all on equell footing is just plain wrong in my opinion...I mean, isent that why the War was fought in the first place. The free peoples of the World fighting the Brutal regimes of the Nazies and the Imperial Japanese Army and Navy. I dont buy the explanation, that only a few were in the Nazie party were Guilty. I would think it would take thousands to cocive this evil plan, and then carry it out.Plese understand my freind, I do not condeme ALL German and Japanese soldiers. All you guys have pointed out (correctly) that many did not belive in their leaders lust for power and their desire to exstrminate other people they thought of as as no better than dogs.....To sum up. The way I see it, the Axis Powers started the War...they embarked on a War of conquest...they killed Millions of innocent people....they Killed and mistreated prisionrs and all the rest. To simply say they that their were murders in all the armies, and let it go at that , is wrong because thousands of Allied soldiers gave their lives to stop the very murders we are talking about...If I am wrong, somebody set me straight.I do not say any of this in anger or with malice.
     
  6. WALT

    WALT Member

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    Im sorry for the double post. I lost power just as I was trying to post it. I dident think it went through.
     
  7. Stevin

    Stevin Ace

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    This is a very hard topic. I think the diference might ( I emphasize, might) be the crimes committed against civilians. Not only did civilians suffer under the Axis powers but also an Ally, namely Russia. Don't have to elaborate here. I would just like to refer to Anthony Beever's upcoming book on the Battle for Berlin.

    I heard several account were Allied soldiers or small groups of them commited acts against the geneva convention, but so far all against Axis military personell, not civilians. Unlike a lot of Germans, I have, however, never heard of a Allied case going to trail.
     
  8. PzJgr

    PzJgr Drill Instructor

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    Steven is correct and I do not believe Carl was implying that all governments had a policy of committing crimes. While Walt has admitted that some criminal acts were committed on a smaller scale, this is what I believe Carl (and I agree) was pointing out.

    War is hell and brings out the worse in some people and the good in others. Everybody loses.
     
  9. Yan

    Yan Member

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    Yes, all Armies had their crimes during the wars but none came close to that of the Wehrmacht.
     
  10. PzJgr

    PzJgr Drill Instructor

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    Yan, I would say that the Russians surpassed the wehrmacht in atrocities committed by an armed branch of a nation. It would be difficult to say who was on top. There is no obvious choice here. This is not to say that the Wehrmacht did not commit any atrocities. I am not an apologist but a realist.
     
  11. C.Evans

    C.Evans Expert

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    Hello Walt i do agree with much of what you say but, it has to be remembered that the Russians committed wayyy more war crimes than the Germans did--even with the Holocost victims added in.

    Yan--I know about the rape of Nanking, what happened in the Philipines--Bataan--Corrigador, Manchuria, Korea, South East Asia (Vietnam) at that time. also include the Bataan death march--the bad things that happened at Imphal and Kohima, Ceylon etc. just to name a few japanese bad actions--NOT included are what they did with POWS like having them interred on cargo ships KNOWING that the ships would be attacked by the Allies AND that Allied POWs would be slaughtered. Remember the famous prison ship I think it was called Maru Maru? remember the POW camp at Cabanutuan? etc.

    I have never seen--heard nor read of any German run POW camp that was anywhere near as bad as those ran bu the japs and the russians.

    Im not making this a personal attack in any way shape or form--just stating a little of what I know in the little time I can say anything due to having to leave for work. ;)
     
  12. Langemann

    Langemann Member

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    I think what I see happening here is the combination of murders carried out by the Governments of Germany, Russia, and Japan with the murders carried out by the Armies of said countries.

    Yes the Germans were responsible for killing untold millions of Jews in both concentration camps and Extermination camps, but these killings were carried out, in most part by Totenkopfverbande units and not Waffen-SS or Wehrmacht troops. However, this does not exhonorate the Wehrmacht or Waffen-SS. They are still responsible for the deaths of hundreds of thousands of civillians during the war.

    The Russian government is also guilty of killing innocents, both of their own nation and of the nations that came under their rule. Check out Robert Conquest's "Harvest of Sorrow" if you're interesed in reading about the organized starvation of 20 million Ukranian workers during the 1930's for example. It is a good example of Governmental murder. Their military also was guilty of killing civilians and commiting atrocities during the later stages of the war.

    What is difficult here is to sit back and say, "This one is worse than the other" when it comes to these crimes. No one was right, there is really no lesser evil when it comes to committing atrocities. Everyone involved was as guilty as the next nation..

    Just my .02

    Langemann
     
  13. Yan

    Yan Member

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    The Red Army did not come close to what the Wehrmacht did on Soviet soil. The simple fact that genocide was a part of the Wehrmacht and the Red Army's actions were dictated by pure and simple vengence and 'justice' says it all. Although if interested read "The German Army and Genocide" and books by Omer Bartov.
     
  14. Yan

    Yan Member

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    Japanese, true, they were probably on the same level as that of the Germans. Soviets, not even close, they took care of their prisoners, those that were lost were lost in large numbers due to the fact that their condition didn't let them even get to the POW camps, best example is Stalingrad survivors, they were in no condition to do anything and would have died regardless in Soviet captivity or not.
     
  15. Yan

    Yan Member

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    Harvest of Sorrow is pure lies backed up by several eye witnesses, the numbers presented have no primary sources from any archives. I will quote an actual 'expert' on this though:

    "The pattern is quite consistent that memoirs assert the 1932 harvest was
    good, even abundant, but archival sources consistently demonstrate that the
    harvest was extremely poor.

    This was especially the case in the Volga basin in 1931 and 1932. A severe
    drought struck the Volga basin [and other regions] in late spring and summer
    1931. In 1932, and this is the point of my Carl Beck Paper, a complex of
    environmental disasters devastated harvests in the Volga basin and many
    other regions of the USSR.

    One of the points of my research is that, according to NKZ sources, peasants
    [like farmers in the US, which I also document] often did not understand
    some of these infestations, could not detect them, and assumed that the
    crops were in good condition when they in fact were not. This I think
    explains many of the assertions in memoirs that the crops were good.

    The top leadership including Stalin were poorly informed about this
    situation and were not convinced that these disasters were significant.
    These leaders believed, like these eyewitness accounts, that the 1932
    harvest was good and that the peasants were withholding food from the
    equally starving ciites, where workers and their dependents were being cut
    off the rationing system and dying in much greater numbers than normal.

    If workers and other urban residents were dying of starvation [and this is
    well documented in archival and even emigre sources], if the rationing
    system was issuing decreased amounts, if the procurement agencies obtained
    less grain from the villages after the 1932 harvest than after the 1931 or
    1930 harvest, yet confiscated seed and so much else that peasants died in
    large numbers, in millions, how can anyone avoid the conclusion that the
    harvest was very small, and not enough to feed everyone in the country?

    In light of this, I believe we have to approach memoirs and even letters
    from the period extremely cautiously , and treat them not as absolute truth
    but as emotional expressions of traumatized people. I write this not to
    minimize their suffering, but there is a substantial psychological
    literature on post-traumatic stress syndrome and on the effects of trauma on
    memory. This literature documents incontrovertibly that people's memories
    in such circumstances are highly unreliable. I refer interested and even
    skeptical readers to the writings of Elizabeth Loftus on this point. Her
    works have been used in numerous court cases related to historical memory,
    and I believe that they also apply here.

    Sincerely,
    Mark B. Tauger
    Dept. of History
    West Virginia University"

    [ 20 May 2002, 06:40 PM: Message edited by: Yan ]
     
  16. Friedrich

    Friedrich Expert

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    I agree with Carl. All armies commited crimes during the war, because that's the way war is.

    Yes, there are all the Jews...
    Yes, there are all the Chinesse...
    Yes, there are all the prisoners in the Gulaks of Stalin (by the way, my father is phisycly identical to him)...

    But waht about 100.000 Japanesse of Tokio?
    60.000 in Hiroshima
    60.000 in Nagasaki

    60.000 in Dresden
    50.000 in Berlin
    50.000 in Hamburg
    30.000 in Nuernberg
    30.000 in Muenchen
    40.000 in Koeln
    30.000 in Bonn

    Do I continue?
     
  17. Langemann

    Langemann Member

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    I think these two paragraphs sum it up quite well:

    "The top leadership including Stalin were poorly informed about this situation and were not convinced that these disasters were significant.
    These leaders believed, like these eyewitness accounts, that the 1932 harvest was good and that the peasants were withholding food from the
    equally starving ciites, where workers and their dependents were being cut off the rationing system and dying in much greater numbers than normal.

    If workers and other urban residents were dying of starvation [and this is well documented in archival and even emigre sources], if the rationing system was issuing decreased amounts, if the procurement agencies obtained less grain from the villages after the 1932 harvest than after the 1931 or 1930 harvest, yet confiscated seed and so much else that peasants died in
    large numbers, in millions, how can anyone avoid the conclusion that the harvest was very small, and not enough to feed everyone in the country?"

    Thousands of people, starving every day, wait for help from their government. Help that never comes because, "... not convinced that these disasters were significant" while, "workers and their dependents were being cut
    off the rationing system and dying in much greater numbers than normal."

    When people die that fast, and in that amount, it is the responsiblity of the government to step in and do something. People don't put their lives in the hands of Government just so that they can let them starve because they're not convinced the problem is not that serious.

    Langemann
     
  18. Yan

    Yan Member

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    The famine was widespread, all was done that was possible to have been done.
     
  19. WALT

    WALT Member

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    Hello Friedrick. The losses of the lives in the citys that you mentioned is a sad and tragic thing...but, Hundreads of thousands of inocent cevilians had already been killed by the axis powers by the time you speak of. Im sorry, but it was the axis that started the war, not the civillians of London Enland, or China, or missionaires in New Giunia who were beheaded by the Japanese.(with their children)I belive, by 1944, it should have been obvious to all parties that neighter the Germans or the Japanese could win the war, and the War should have ended then. But the Axis refused, so the Allies did what they had to do, and that was to Bomb the people of the Axis powers into submmision. And that is what happened, and the War ended...To me, that is not the same as the death camps, the beheadings, the torture, the hangings, the kilings in entire villages by bayonet and rifle fire, or lamp shades made of human skin....All the people you spoke of were killed by bombing cities, But early in the war the Germans bombed Holland, france, Poland, England....The Japanese bombed Shainhi China 1n 1937, then later, Singaphore,and even Austrailia (58 times)...They invaded, and brutilized the Philipinnes. Both these Nations embarked on a war of Conquest.....and they lost in the end, but at enormus cost to the rest of the world....they were bombed so this madness would come to an end.....Friedrich, I have said this befor in my postings, I DO NOT HATE THE JAPANESE OR GERMAN PEOPLE !...on the contary, I have much respect for them both. And also the courage of their soldiers....the war is over....I am not trying to be a negitive person with my postings here, but I would like SOMEONE in these fourms to say that the Axis started the war that is the most terrible thing to ever befall mankind in the history of the world.I do understand that the Germans are a proud people, and they have a lot to be proud of...and I dont exspect them to be on some kind of a quilt trip because of the war. as I have said, I know their were many good men in both the Japanese and German Armies, but I cant set and say nothing when it is said the the Allied Army did the same as the Axis Armies...because it is not true...General Ezinhower hated hitler because, he was the one man who forced the Allies to destroy ancient German towns and cities, and kill German cevillians, and soldiers....and Allied soldiers were being killed for no reason...The war was lost, but he made his men fight on, even tho Germany was being destroyed around them, and it was hopeless.....Friedrich, I hope you belive me when I say, that if were a young man in the Army today, say fighting the terrorist, I would be glad, and proud, to serve with modern German soldiers....but, thats not what this is about. it is about being realistic about what happened on sept. 1st, 1939......I welcome comments, and I hope all understand the spirit in which I have posted this.....it is not about revenge or hate, or any of that stuff. I only said what I belive is true, and I feel it needed to be said...anybody agree, or am I a jerk ?
     
  20. Peppy

    Peppy Idi Admin

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    You are not a jerk, you just have a different than most others seem to have here. That's fine, and we should discuss this without anger or bitterness.

    My opinion is this. All sides commited war crimes, some worse than others.

    I want to bing to everyones attention the actions of the Soviets after the war. Stalin's government had taken almost 2,000,000 german prisoners by the end of hostilities. Of those, only about 25,000 ever returned from Russia. There was also the Katyn massacre in 1939.

    The Japanes were desperately trying to surrender after August 6th, but the uS delayed proceeding so they could use their other A-Bomb and see how it worked.

    I don't see how anyone can defend Germany, Russia, Japan, or the US or UK for that matter. It doesn't matter how you kill people, that you kill them is what matters. If you try to defend a major participant of the Second World War of warcrimes, you simply don't have a leg to stand on.

    WW2 was a sea of blood, and everyone was swimming.

    One last note: I don't believe Hitler was the cause of WW2. WW2 would have happened eventually. I'm pretty sure Hitler was a catalyst that sped things up, but he was just facilitating an event that was socialy, politcally and militarily unavoidable. If you want to lay blame for WW2, (in Europe), blame the people who framed the Treaty of Versailles. They had the opportunity to prevent future wars, but they chose their own path to war.

    [ 23 May 2002, 01:10 AM: Message edited by: Peppy ]
     
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