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MAY 16TH 1943 WARSAW POLAND / THE SS

Discussion in 'Winter and Continuation Wars' started by WALT, May 16, 2002.

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  1. Steve

    Steve Member

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    HI Walt: The "Indian thing" is still a "thing". Have you been to any indian reservations lately. We fought a war to end slavery but when did it actually end. During the war blacks still had their own units commanded by white officers. Apparently they could be great cooks, drivers, etc. but they werent fit to be soldiers. The war ended in the 19th century but not alot changed. I enjoy this forum and the guys who post here to exchange ideas, mine are right and yours are right, mine are wrong and yours are wrong thats what makes this so much fun.
     
  2. Bish OBE

    Bish OBE Member

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    Not often we get this type of heated debate round hear. I just hope we can keep it civil. yan, do you post at ONWAR under YAN NY.

    I do not think Carls first post implied that the western allies were as bad as the German or anyone else. And while their crimes were not state sanctioned or as bad, they did go unpunhised. And this included crimes carried out in 1941, long before german warcrimes were uncovered. And what really gripes my shit is that the Soviets were allowed to take part in the trial of german criminals. This is like Jack the RIpper sitting on the prosecution bench in the trial of the Yorkshire ripper. Of cousre, i already hear the cries of revenge, and the German thugs deserved it. All this does is justify a lynch mob. They punhised a nation several times over for the crimes of a few. Not only were the guilty punhised, but innocent woman were raped, and ordernary German soldiers spent years in Labour camps. And we were meant to be fighting a war to end such things.
     
  3. Yan

    Yan Member

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    Yes, I am the one and only.

    Which of the Soviets would you want to see put on trial? Many were punished within the Red Army. Germans rebuilt what they destroyed while in POW camps in the Soviet Union, it is only fair.
     
  4. Peppy

    Peppy Idi Admin

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    To say that the Germans were kept in Russian gulags to 'rebuild' the Soviet Union is just plain wrong. Stalin imprisoned these men, (most of them until their deaths), as a punitive action against the Third Reich. They did very little 'rebuilding' as you call it.

    I guess it was only fair to the 100,000+ German women living in Berlin that they were raped. After all they gave birth to the children that became the invading armies.

    ---This thread blows.

    [ 09 June 2002, 01:32 AM: Message edited by: Peppy ]
     
  5. Yan

    Yan Member

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    I guess it was only fair to the 100,000+ German women living in Berlin that they were raped. After all they gave birth to the children that became the invading armies.

    ---This thread blows.
    </font>[/QUOTE]First off they weren't kept in GULAGs but worked throughout the whole of the Soviet Union. As an example read Von Lucks memoirs and see how much time he spent in a Siberian GULAG. As to the statement "most of them until their death", your source is? Educate yourself on the topic first, then you can at least be seen as someone who knows what he's talking about and not just ignorant and arrogant.
     
  6. Peppy

    Peppy Idi Admin

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    Please refrain wrom accusations of ignorance. In this case it is clear that you are the person attempting to cover for your lack of knowledge, and your hostility only proves you have no true basis for a cohesive argument.

    I recently read a book by Richard Overy, he wrote such books as:
    -Why the Allies Won
    -Russia's War
    -Interrogations : The Nazi Elite in Allied Hands, 1945
    -The Historical Atlas of the Third Reich
    -The Road to War
    -World at War

    I think he is a credible source, but I'm sure you will find some problem with his information. You have every right to discredit his data because I'm sure you have published volumes on the second world war, (or at least you post like you have).

    According to Overy, in Russia's War, "356,000 German POW's perished in Soviet captivity, an additional 162,000 Non-German allies, and 62,000 Japanese, 580,000 men died in soviet POW camps. 2.388 million Germans alone were taken prisoner from 1941 to 1945."

    These were only deaths during the war, there were many more deaths after the end of hostilities.

    Overy states that "of all German prisoners in Russian control at the end of hostilities, only 40% ever returned home."

    This is your source you asked for, enjoy. Wait a minute, who did you say was ignorant again?

    Further, Of course Von Luck was treated well. He was a well know military commander who's dissapearence would have been notoced and questioned. Hartmann is another of these men who was treated comparatively well and returned. For every high profile name that was returned there were countless, nameless soldiers who wasted away in your beloved Russia.

    Also, I see you are a person who picks his battles. You only argue semantic points that you know you can win. But things which paint your beloved communists as bad you ignore. For an example see that you chose to attack my 'ignorance' but conveniently forgot to address the hundreds of thousands of rape victims accross Germany at the hands of your beloved Russians, (I'll get sources if you really want).

    Also, if you had been here longer you probaly would have read a thread where Hitler and Stalin were discussed. The general consensus was that they were both evil men. You beloved Stalin however was responsible for the deaths of more people than Hitler was. And most of those were his own Russian countrymen.

    Please don't call someone ignorant to disguise your own lack of knowledge. No one here suggested Hitler was a nice guy, but from what you are writing, you act like Stalin was benevolent!! LOL!!! I suggest you read a couple books on the subject and get a realistic perspective on your beloved Stalin. Until then, all we will be doing is hearing you rattle on with no basis. Spare me and everyone here your one-sided diatribes.

    ----------------------------------------------
    Could a moderator please close this damn thread?

    [ 09 June 2002, 05:40 AM: Message edited by: Peppy ]
     
  7. Andreas Seidel

    Andreas Seidel Member

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    Bish, Peppy, you are the sole voices of reason is this completely uncharacteristic thread for this board.

    You know the great thing about Germany? It's the only country you can shit on without being told off.

    And you know what the great thing about Israel is? Any action it performs is holy and unquestionable.

    Unfortunately the crowd that shits on Germany and rushes to defend Israel doesn't give a damn about Israelis or Germans at all, nor is there a hint of feeling behind their actions. All they want to do is take a moral high stand (never mind that it's insane) and cause trouble. Many journalists belong to this group. I'm surprised the German football team wasn't criticized for being neonazi and racist for winning agaisnt Saudi Arabia sometimes. One poster on this thread probably would have or has done so.
     
  8. Steve

    Steve Member

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    Guys, I would hate to see us closing threads just because someone else doesnt agree with our point of view whether we are right or wrong. Peppy, you got a little flustered with Yans statements although in this case I wouldnt worry about them. I will say however that it is not fair to any woman to be raped no matter what the circumstances may be. Yan: you seem to be in favor of the Russian point of view but in this case there is way to much evidence that proves the German soldiers that were held prisoner after the war did very little "rebuilding" and alot more dying. To defend your view is one thing but dont argue with the facts. Von Luck and Hartmann were exceptions to the rule. This topic has generated some of the best views I've read anywhere. I would hate to close it just because someone doesnt like someone elses view.
     
  9. Bish OBE

    Bish OBE Member

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    Mate, there are times i feel sorry for you and your countrymen. You belong to a great nation with a great past. A past that has one 12 year blot on it, which you are never aloud to forget.

    Like you, i belong to a great nation with a great past. A past that has a blot on it that lasted several hundred years and included an Empire that took land from native peoples, who are still suffereing because of it, and started of a massive slave trade.

    Carl belongs to a great nation, with a blot on its past that includes slavery and the attempted genocide of the native peoples.

    Russia to is a great nation, whos blot lasted over half a century. It included mass killings, the occupation of many other nations, and the repression of millions of people.

    But of all these, only Germany is the bad guy and anything done to it was fine in the name of revenge and justice and you are never allowed to rest.
     
  10. WALT

    WALT Member

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    Steve...I agree. I think when all the posts so far on this topic are read with an open mind I belive it is fair to say that that we have all learned a few things we did not know, or did not want to admit about the other sides views....and thats just what a Forum is sussposed to be. Im the one who left the opening topic, and I do not regret it for an instant. This type of horror was part of the war weather some of us want to amitt it or not...it happened....Mr. Segal..(hope I spelled your name right)...I think you are refurring to me, when you say all that about defending Israil, attacking Germany, and taking a high moral stance on this issue.....I disagree. I have attacked the "NAZIES", not Germany. I have not defended Israil. And as for the moral attitude, I stand by all my posts here, and belive I have said nothing that is not true. I think if you have an open mind, you will see that I have not attacked your Country, but Hitler and those who supported him. And for this I make no apology.
    I dont understand some of the attude I see today coming from Europe. You seem to think that some of us are blaming you for the war. I for one, am not. I'm talking about the Nazie Party which lead Germany in a war that most Germans probley did not want, and it brought nothing but sorrow and ruin to your country in the end. For the people who survived the war I have respect. They went on to build a better Germany without the help of Hitler types.
    I think it is critical, that all peoples understand the causes of the war, and how just one man can change the overall course of a nation, and embark that nation into a collision course with the rest of the world that lead to the horrors and suffering brought on by his insain lust for power. All the world needs to learn that lesson.
    I think part of the tragidy of the second World War, is the death and destruction that happened in Germany and Japan, but it was they who started the war.So why are you upset with me for simpley stating a fact? Yes, the S.S. did murder 14,000 Jews in Warsaw Poland in 1941......The Axis lost their war of conquest and terror at great cost to the rest of the world......The free world helped both Germany and Japan rebuild....So why are you mad at Me?
     
  11. Yan

    Yan Member

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    We'll see about that, so far I'm being proved right on all counts.

    And this makes him an expert on those killed in POW camps? Hitler wrote a book as well, would you like to quote him too?

    A credible source for what? POW numbers, no.

    Most German POW's who perished were during the war and the best example would be the Stalingrad prisoners who would have died even if they weren't taken POW. The condition of utter exhaustion they were in because they stayed and fought in the conditions they did caused their deaths, not the fact that they were taken POW.

    Did you think I wouldn't notice? First off this debate started about the fact that I said POW's rebuilt the country, you said they died in POW camps, now, prove it.

    What is his source? Give primary sources.

    You are.

    If the Soviets could have had their way they would have killed every 'well known officers' they got their hands on. Secondly Von Luck wasn't alone, refer again to where he was and what he was doing.

    I argue points that need to be argued. WHat about the rapes? First off Red Army soldiers were punished for them and secondly the Red Army did not start the war, they finished it.

    And this is based on what? Conquest and Solzhenitsyn? Also, I have never said my opinion of Stalin on this forum, so keep guessing of what I think of him, with as much proof as your providing right now, you can call him my girlfriend as well.

    Actually I've read more than you ever will, in fact I lived in the country for a nice portion of my life and experienced the system, how about you?
     
  12. C.Evans

    C.Evans Expert

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    Yan--ill be available here tuesday morning to FINALLY reply to you--Carl.

    PS, on what accounts were you right on???
     
  13. Yan

    Yan Member

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    That 'peppy' is ignorant and arrogant and does not know what he is talking about.
     
  14. Peppy

    Peppy Idi Admin

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    Thanks, I will.

    [ 09 June 2002, 11:01 PM: Message edited by: Peppy ]
     
  15. Peppy

    Peppy Idi Admin

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    Yan your personal attacks on me prove that your point of view is baseless. I will however entertain a response to your profound ignorance.

    By who's judgement? You have not argued against a single point I made with facts. You only continue to insult and attack me personally, and then ask me to prove facts that are accepted as common knowledge. Keep up the good work, you are doing Russia proud, (maybe you should move back there).

    And this makes him an expert on those killed in POW camps? Hitler wrote a book as well, would you like to quote him too?
    </font>[/QUOTE]1) Yes it does make him an expert. Certainly more of an expert than you 'claim' to be. What books have you published about your girlfriend oh wise one?
    2) I would quote hitler about the topic if he were a credible source. Unfortunately Hitler died in 1945 and wasn't around to see what happened after the war. Do you want me to find a source for Hitler's death in '45, or can we agree on this fact?!?!

    Most German POW's who perished were during the war and the best example would be the Stalingrad prisoners who would have died even if they weren't taken POW. The condition of utter exhaustion they were in because they stayed and fought in the conditions they did caused their deaths, not the fact that they were taken POW.
    </font>[/QUOTE]1) Are you seriously telling me soldiers died in Russian captivity from "battle fatigue"??? This would be comical if you weren't talking about men's lives. But I guess to you they are only germans who deserved to be killed.
    2) I have never heard this point of view before. Prove to me with Primary sources that these Germans died from "utter exhastion". (Two can play this game you ignoramus.)

    Did you think I wouldn't notice? First off this debate started about the fact that I said POW's rebuilt the country, you said they died in POW camps, now, prove it.
    </font>[/QUOTE]1) You notice only what you wish to
    2) I just proved using Overy as a source that many Germans died in Russian captivity. Richard Overy and anyone else here on these Forums, would agree with me about this, are we all wrong oh wise one? Can you not even accept the possibility you may br wrong? I'm sure you wont.

    What is his source? Give primary sources.
    </font>[/QUOTE]I knew this wouldn't be good enough for you. As soon as I produced concrete evidence you deny even that. Your logic is the same one used by people like Ernst Zundel, who denies the Holocaust. Many sources agree with Overy, I'm just not going to waste my time proving accepted facts. Just like I'm not going to waste time proving to you that the Earth is round.


    You are.
    </font>[/QUOTE]Very cogent argument, nice work. You ignorance is dripping all over this thread, you are just to ignorant to notice, LOL!!

    If the Soviets could have had their way they would have killed every 'well known officers' they got their hands on. Secondly Von Luck wasn't alone, refer again to where he was and what he was doing.
    </font>[/QUOTE]1) I always said von Luck wasn't alone, that's why I mentioned others like Hartmann. For someone who claims to read so much, you don't read very well at all.
    2) Funny in one instance you say the Russians treated the germans well, in another you say "they would have killed every one they got their hands on." You said it yourself, the Russians were killing germans. Do you want a source for that? (If so please look at your own post, thanks.) I love it when someone 'argues' against themselves, :D LOL!!!
    3) Prove to me with primary sources von Luck and Hartmann were treated well. You made the statement back it up. (Two can play this game you ignoramus.)

    I argue points that need to be argued. WHat about the rapes? First off Red Army soldiers were punished for them and secondly the Red Army did not start the war, they finished it.
    </font>[/QUOTE]1) That's right you argue, others debate rationally.
    2) you say the Russian's were "punished" for the rapes. Does this make it better? If so, then the Germans must be angels by now since everyone has been bashing them for years now.
    3) They finished the war by raping women? I'm glad you are defending these wonderful rapists of yours.
    4) Prove to me with Primary sources that the hundreds of thousands of guilty Red Army soldiers were punished. (Two can play this game you ignoramus).

    And this is based on what? Conquest and Solzhenitsyn?
    </font>[/QUOTE]I don't recall mentioning "Conquest and Solzhenitsyn" I was using the Hitler/Stalin thread as a source since I knew you would ask for one. Several people mention sources in the thread, if not just open an encyclopedia. You told me to read, I suggest you find the thread and read it before you reply to me. The fact is that it is well know that Stalin killed millions of his own people. He is second only to Mao as far as mass murder goes. Do a little reading anywhere; this is common knowledge, but I am not surprised you don't know it.

    You girlfriend eh?? At last your true feeling for the lovely Stalin comes to light. I think your opinion of your girlfriend is very high. All you have done here is defend the actions of Stalin and the Russians during WW2 as justified. Doing this is similar to protecting Hitler's actions. I guess love makes people do crazy things!! [​IMG]

    Actually I've read more than you ever will, in fact I lived in the country for a nice portion of my life and experienced the system, how about you?</font>[/QUOTE]1) You claimed to have read more than I ever will. I'm just curious, How do you know this?? Please prove to me using Primary sources you have read more than me. (Two can play this game you ignoramus.)
    2) No I never lived in a communist nation, but I can tell by your perspectives that you most certainly have. By the way, one does not need live in a country to know what happened there. For example, I have never been to Afghanistan, but I know there is a war going on there. I can't prove it unless I take you there, but believe me oh wise one, there is a war. Let me guess, you are going to demand sources.

    Yan, I always try to take everyones point of view into account. You most certailny do not do this. I have been here for a long time and, as Otto will attest, I have contributed to the Forums in a variety of ways. All you seem to do is rattle off and piss people off. Everyone here is becoming tired of you ignorance and perpetual babbling about something you are completely ignorant about. Please take your girlfriend and her communism elsewhere.

    [ 09 June 2002, 11:14 PM: Message edited by: Peppy ]
     
  16. Yan

    Yan Member

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    I made no personal attacks, if you want to post lies and sound as ignorant as you apparently are, then I will refer to you in that way.

    You present no proof to what is being debated and yet you still see yourself somehow being right, that says more than enough for me.

    No, it does not. Especially not on what happened to POW's after the war was over.

    How much of an expert I am is not in question here.

    Don't put words in my mouth. The reason most POW's died, and they died in 1941 and 1942 for the most part, was because of the conditions the Soviet Union was caught in and the fact that soldiers were exhausted and Soviet POW camps were not nursing centers, examples would be POW's in Stalingrad.

    You can't read in Russian, any proof would be useless to you.

    Whether they died or not is not in question, what they were doing after the war ended is. Prove that most German POW's after the war died in GULAGs.

    You didn't produce any evidence for the argument that you started.


    Have you read his memoirs? Read them and see how many men Von Luck worked with who were Germans, pay attention to what you read.

    I never said they were treated well, don't put words in my mouth.

    I don't have to prove anything, I never made such a statement.

    The Soviet Union didn't start a second world war and committe uncountable acts of genocide throughout Europe and the Soviet Union.

    I never defended them, I simply understand why they did what they did.

    Learn to read Russian first, if you can't, Rokossovsky's memoirs will do for now where he recounts how he punished soldiers he found raping a German woman.

    No thanks, I read actual primary evidence from the archives.

    So he did, who's denying it?

    Your numbers come from where?

    In fact I stated that the German POW's who remained in the Soviet Union helped rebuild it, the rest is a result of your imagination.

    Because you post lies that one who has educated himself on the subject would not post, it's very simple really.

    I really don't care what you know about Afghanistan.

    You are the representative of everyone? I doubt it, secondly you have proved nothing yet made up all kinds of lies throughout, now, prove your first statement or just admit how much of an idiot you are.
     
  17. Otto

    Otto Rested & Resupplied with MREs. Staff Member WW2|ORG Editor

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    This ends now.

    The fact is you are both being buttheads.

    Yan, Peppy has contrubuted a LOT here, I don't want to have to make a choice between the two of you.

    [ 10 June 2002, 12:02 AM: Message edited by: Otto ]
     
  18. Peppy

    Peppy Idi Admin

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    I'd like to point this out:

    Evidently we have a liar.
     
  19. Otto

    Otto Rested & Resupplied with MREs. Staff Member WW2|ORG Editor

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    Enough Peppy!

    **thread closed**

    [ 10 June 2002, 12:03 AM: Message edited by: Otto ]
     
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