Welcome to the WWII Forums! Log in or Sign up to interact with the community.

Merkel Apparently Fears Devastating Defeat of the Ukrainian Army

Discussion in 'The Stump' started by Bundesluftwaffe, Feb 6, 2015.

  1. gtblackwell

    gtblackwell Member Emeritus

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2006
    Messages:
    2,271
    Likes Received:
    678
    Location:
    Auburn, Alabama, US
    Takao, thanks for the better explanation, got my wars wrong. Any war seems to greatly increase the chances of accidental incidents. I vaguely recall an incident in the cold war in which a Soviet sub and a US fleet carrier tried to occupy the same space at the same time causing the sub to emergency surface. The story said neither was aware of the other. . I felt this a bit farfetched but one never knows. Do you remember this and was what I recall accurate. ?

    I do recall the Stark attack. and the Israeli attack on our intelligence gathering ship. the USS Liberty during the 6 day's War.. I found it hard to believe ., sorry italics just popped up on their own, they would deliberately attack a US ship but I had no good information at the time and they were in the middle of a quick moving war. Would like to know more from you about that one too. Many US personnel felt it was deliberate. I could not figure out to what end.

    Gaines
     
    Last edited: May 26, 2018
    rkline56 likes this.
  2. Takao

    Takao Ace

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2010
    Messages:
    10,103
    Likes Received:
    2,574
    Location:
    Reading, PA
    That would be the USS Kitty Hawk vs a Victor I one night in 1984. Circumstances vary as to the Victor's actions; It was at periscope depth when hit, it was in the process of surfacing, or it had just surfaced. Given the visible damage(a diagonal crease across the deck) to the submarine, it was either at periscope depth or was in the process of surfacing. Also, the Kitty Hawk never called General Quarters or sound collision alarm, so it is doubtful that the Kitty Hawk knew she was there. The escorts had stopped tracking the Victor about three hours before collision, and the Kitty Hawk had landed her aircraft about two hours prior - although she may have still had a helo in the air(another question would be if the helo was dipping her sonar or not). So, I would doubt the the carrier knew the sub was there...She likely knew it was in the vicinity, just not directly in front of her.

    The you also have the Japanese fishing school ship Ehime Maru and the submarine USS Greenville, where the submarine surfaced right into the Japanese ship.
    Ehime Maru and USS Greeneville collision - Wikipedia

    As to the USS Liberty...That is just a one giant can of worms. Cases can be made for each side.
    How much do you want to know? The 11 part JAG investigation (as well as the USS Vincennes/Iran Air Flight 655) can be found here: JAG Manual Investigations | U.S. Navy JAG Corps
     
    gtblackwell likes this.
  3. gtblackwell

    gtblackwell Member Emeritus

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2006
    Messages:
    2,271
    Likes Received:
    678
    Location:
    Auburn, Alabama, US
    Thank you for your knowledgeable insights. I have a long time interest is such incidents. They often seem improbable on the surface, no pun intended, but circumstances arise that create them. Not unlike the old firehouse analogy of days, weeks and months of boredom interrupted by periods of mayhem and terror. Our destroyers of the Pacific fleet might fit into that category..

    I thought the Ehime Maru case was particularly sad but agree the truth about the USS Liberty may never be known. Not that civilian lives are any more important than military ones.

    I shall now go and read all your kind links!

    Gaines
     
  4. lwd

    lwd Ace

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2007
    Messages:
    12,322
    Likes Received:
    1,245
    Location:
    Michigan
    There were also some active fire being exchanged between Iranian and US forces at the time. I linked a reference in post 568 above.
     
  5. Kai-Petri

    Kai-Petri Kenraali

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2002
    Messages:
    26,461
    Likes Received:
    2,207
    Shocking Details Revealed in MH17 Final Report

    The warhead — launched 33,000 feet below in the Ukrainian countryside — exploded less than one yard from the aircraft's cockpit, the Dutch report said.

    A split-second later, hundreds of "high-energy" fragments pierced the fuselage and the shrapnel instantly killed the two pilots and one crew member inside.

    A 2.3-millisecond noise was recorded on the cockpit's voice recorders before the system stopped working. By triangulating the signal, experts were able to show that it originated outside the aircraft.

    Their conclusion was also based on "bow-tie"-shaped fragments found inside the bodies of the flight's crew members that were consistent with a 9N314M missile launched as part of the BUK system.

    ------------------

    In the months leading up to the crash, the conflict in Ukraine had expanded into the airspace and a number of military aircraft had been shot down

    Although the area where the jet crashed had a no-fly zone in place up to 9,754m (32,000ft), the airliner was flying above the limit at 10,058m (33,000ft).

    The airspace over eastern Ukraine was busy with commercial flights that day - 160 planes flew over the region.

    MH17 Ukraine plane crash: What we know
     

Share This Page