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More bad news for UK gun enthusiasts...

Discussion in 'The Guns Galore Section' started by Simonr1978, Jan 7, 2008.

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  1. machine shop tom

    machine shop tom Member

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    Not a theory when the anti-gun groups themselves admit that the ultimate goal of gun control efforts is the elimination of private ownership of firearms.
     
  2. wm.

    wm. Well-Known Member

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    The first link is a mass of legalese, useless for the everyday person. It offers no clear guidance, and answers every question maybe.
    There is no "my house is my castle", there is no "stand your ground" there. It's just maybe.
    The criminal is invariably the stronger party, he chooses the time and the place, if you are in danger, there is no time for "maybe".

    The second link: "A person may use force as a last resort if there is no other means whereby they can escape or retreat from an attack"
    by doing that you lose any advantage you maybe have.
    The fleeing person is vulnerable, criminals see fleeing as a, emboldening them, sign of weakness - think a woman facing a rapist.

    The third link: powers could be granted in 'extreme circumstances'
    but they are not granted now, and most likely will not be granted ever. It's just the usual nonsense talk after another terrorist attack.

    What i meant was this:

    The only fully legal self defence product at the moment is a rape alarm. These are not expensive and can be bought from most local police stations or supermarkets.
    There are other self defence products which claim to be legal (e.g. non toxic sprays), however, until a test case is brought before the court, we cannot confirm their legality or endorse them. If you purchase one you must be aware that if you are stopped by the police and have it in your possession there is always a possibility that you will be arrested and detained until the product, it's contents and legality can be verified.

    You must not get a product which is made or adapted to cause a person injury. Possession of such a product in public (and in private in specific circumstances) is against the law.
    However, be aware that even a seemingly safe product, deliberately aimed and sprayed in someone's eyes, would become an offensive weapon because it would be used in a way that was intended to cause injury.


    So in Britain it is: be sure not to injure your rapist.

    So no self-defense, no my house is my castle, no stand your ground, no guns (except some useless sporting and hunting toy-like guns - kept locked in safes), no shall-issue, no cancel-carry, no open-carry, nothing (one might add - no freedom of speech, and administrative, total, warrantless eavesdropping of Internet to the mix).
     
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2017
  3. Mutley

    Mutley Active Member

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    Utter codswollop as usual wm. You know nothing of Britain and especially the Scots. I remember years ago somebody smashed the windows in the row of houses I lived in and the police (when they eventually showed up) advised us all to get the windows boarded up in case they returned to rob the houses. I said anybody puts even as much as a hand in my window they would be met with a hammer.
     
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  4. wm.

    wm. Well-Known Member

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  5. GRW

    GRW Pillboxologist Patron   WW2|ORG Editor

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    Not sure you're even referring to the same links, since it's pretty clear to me and I'm not a lawyer. The idea of last resort is to stop some thug kicking the crap out of someone after a simple argument, and then claiming "self-defence".
    And I don't need a gun to defend myself either.
     
  6. GRW

    GRW Pillboxologist Patron   WW2|ORG Editor

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    Or the more practical version, a foot up the arse.
     
  7. von Poop

    von Poop Waspish WW2|ORG Editor

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    The main practical problem with UK gun laws, is currently more about their application area by area than the laws themselves, at least if assorted legal gun-owning friends are to be believed.
    Police forces (sorry... 'services') interpret and apply the law as they see fit, region by region.
    Appeals against police restrictions on tickets seem often to go quite well, as the letter of the law is often more reasonable than the interpretation of it. (I say 'quite well'... still slow, tortuous & often expensive, which may well be part of the plan...)

    What might make sense would be a central body that oversees the system rather than largely non-specialist Police behaving differently from one county to the next, but traditionally if any politician attempts to make even the most reasonable adjustment to firearms laws that might ease things for sane & legal owners, the screaming becomes most mighty, and it, for right or wrong, is a pretty low priority area of legislation here anyway, so remains a bit of a mess.
    (If anyone's genuinely intrigued by ongoing 'gun issues' in the UK & Europe,. ARRSE's sport section really does have some interesting and informed posters. Along with the traditional accompanying loonies to make things occasionally more entertaining : - Shooting, Hunting and Fishing - some intermittent good interaction there between Septics and UK people who genuinely understand the current situation as well. )

    .Wm, I find people in the UK who interminably bang on about the US's guns weird. Not our Kultur, and we don't really understand it, or how deeply it's currents run.
    I'd suggest you're in a similar boat re UK specifics, mate. (Though as nothing compared to a former member here's legendary outrage that a surrender/seizure of NI terrorist weapon caches was an affront to citizen's rights. Still one of the most stupid things I've ever read on the Internerd, nearly 10 years later :) ).
     
  8. wm.

    wm. Well-Known Member

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    Of course, I have no doubts they are clear to you. But they are not clear to most of your compatriots, people not so well educated, not so well read.
    The Legal Guidance is a wall of text, almost 4000 words!, most people are incapable to understand it properly, and a complicated justice is justice denied.

    But, with all due respect I think that the consequences of what is written there are not quite clear to you.
    What they are saying is:
    - if a criminal attack you with fists, you can defend yourself with fists, feet and even teeth.
    - if he pulls a knife on you, you will be dead.

    The right of "duel" with the criminal invading your home is not enough. He has every advantage, he can choose the time, the weapon(s), the place. You can't.
    It has been shown decisively many times that the safe distance against a knife attack is at least 21 feet - if you are armed with a gun. If you have no gun you chance are slim, it's not Hollywood, you can't defend successfully against the knife even with another knife. At best you both will be cut.

    This is why the "stand your ground" doctrine allows to initiate deadly force at the very beginning - because the criminal will not give you a second chance.

    In both cases, "stand your ground" and "the right of duel" the burden of proof is on you, so it's not like you wrote "to stop some thug kicking the crap out of someone after a simple argument". The thug has to prove his life was threaten.

    And we should remember it's all about your home, in the UK outside you home the only fully legal self defence product at the moment is a rape alarm.
     
  9. wm.

    wm. Well-Known Member

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    This will change. The conservatives, the libertarians are winning the Internet wars, it's clearly visible on youtube. The pro-gun message is simple and appeals to everyone.

    [​IMG]



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  10. Takao

    Takao Ace

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    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
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  11. Takao

    Takao Ace

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    I agree!

    Only women should be allowed to carry guns. The rest of us should just man up.
     
  12. wm.

    wm. Well-Known Member

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    Why should guns be regulated like cars? Why not lawn mowers, chainsaws, propane tanks too?

    I can take someone's car without any written test, practical test, insurance, inspections, tittles and tags and kill scores of people with it right now.

    Will you stop me with your regulations? No.

    Why? Because criminals don't follow regulations.
     
  13. Takao

    Takao Ace

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    Oh, man up...
     
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  14. harolds

    harolds Member

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    "Oh, man up..."

    Oh hell, what sort of BS is this? If a drunk wants to fight me I can get out of that situation easily. However, I'm a 68 year old male. How am I supposed to "man up" to a 28 year old whose just got out of prison where he's spent five years buffing up and probably is on meth? Perhaps there's more than one. Then what am I supposed to do? Run? With my knees the average 5 year old can beat me in a race. Just be a meek cringing victim? Sorry, ain't my style. Anyone who says such things needs to work a year or two in the prison system where there are violent criminals. Then come back and we'll talk some more.
     
  15. Takao

    Takao Ace

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  16. machine shop tom

    machine shop tom Member

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    So you are watching TV with your wife and daughter. Suddenly your back door is kicked in and two miscreants burst in, one is armed with a baseball bat and the other with a tire iron. What are you going to defend your loved ones with? Sharp wit?
     
  17. CAC

    CAC Ace of Spades

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    The thing with many home invasions is that the perpetrator and victim are not linked...no prior contact. This sets up "the perfect crime" scenario...the Police will never link you to the death....So call no one, do what you have to do and either drive them into the bush (if you've got some) or go for an early morning run in the tinnie...5kms out be enough? Police in Darwin tell the occupants to drag the sorry A hole outside before they arrive...makes things easier legally.
     
  18. GRW

    GRW Pillboxologist Patron   WW2|ORG Editor

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    Hands, feet, and whatever comes to hand.
    "The definition of an offensive weapon is any article made or adapted for use for causing injury to the person, or intended by the person having it with him for such use by him, or by some other person. (N.B. this definition includes a disguised knife).

    It is an offence for any person who without lawful authority or reasonable excuse has with him in any public place any offensive weapon.

    There are however, exemptions to this which include - for use at work, religious reasons or as part of a national costume."
    Q338: What is the definition of an offensive weapon?

    In other word, a handy household object isn't an offensive weapon, providing it's not a knife, a sword or a firearm.
    Twenty years ago I was attacked in my own close by some junkie retard who bit a chunk out of my ear, crashed my head against a wall and tried to strangle me. I dug my thumb nail into one of his eyes while I was using the other to dig my house key out of my pocket, then stabbed him in the throat with it. That let me get my breath back and lock the door.
    The cops only had to visit the local A &E to find him.
    I don't need a gun to defend myself.
     
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2017
  19. GRW

    GRW Pillboxologist Patron   WW2|ORG Editor

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    1) WTF are you going to do with a rape alarm -deafen him, throw it at him? A car alarm in the next street screamed for two hours on Sunday, and nobody batted an eyelid. But they'll instantly come running because I trigger a rape alarm?!
    2) You've been watching too many movies.
    3) I "can't defend myself against a knife"?! You've never been to Scotland, have you?
     
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  20. harolds

    harolds Member

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    That cane video was nice but a cane isn't going to faze a husky criminal who's been street fighting since he was 16. What happens if they have a knife and know how to use it or for that matter, a gun? (Bringing a cane to a gunfight) Now if they're suddenly looking down a .45 inch (or larger) hole they may suddenly remember they have urgent business elsewhere. If they run then nobody gets hurt which is a very common scenario here in the USA. I've talked to a lot of violent felons and they know that a firearm is a true equalizer. Home invasions are very rare here in Wyoming because of the prevalence of individual artillery. Back in the 80s there were several studies, one of them by the U.S. Justice Dept., that indicated that every year 200,000 or more assaults were stopped by the presence, or perceived presence, of firearms. However, I will say that the skillful use of something like a cane could possibly fend off an assailant long enough for one to draw their CCW. I'll certainly think about it.

    Back to home invasion: Here in Wyoming we have a strong castle doctrine. Very little is said if the assailant(s) dies within your home. Our stand-your-ground isn't as strong though. The standard of proof "on the street" is that any reasonable person, faced with the same situation, would feel they were in danger of death or serious bodily injury. If you can pass that test you will win a self-defense case in our courts.
     
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