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Most despised woman of the war..you decide.

Discussion in 'Concentration, Death Camps and Crimes Against Huma' started by Class of '42, Jun 18, 2020.

  1. Christopher67

    Christopher67 Member

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    My source is as stated above.
    !00,000+ investigations
    Over 6,200 people brought to trial.

    124 convictions resulting in a .

    Look,, Netflix is an American site. "The Accountant of Auschwitz" should be available for you to see for yourself sir.

    It's Rebecca Wittman talking. I went through that doco and took down every word. The figure of 22 Einsatzgruppe bigwigs was from the interview with the U.S. Army Prosecutor himself.

    Why in the hell would I lie to you, Mr Takao?

    What is your source?

    Christopher
     
  2. Christopher67

    Christopher67 Member

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    The change in the prosecutable numbers of people was explained like this....

    If Demyanuk could describe his job at the Ford Motor works, he would say, "Builder or constructor of motor vehicles"

    The entire purpose of the plant is to construct motor cars...nothing else.

    If one was to take a knife to someone in a room that had been guarded by someone preventing the victim from getting out through the door, then that makes the guard an accessory to the crime.

    The entire purpose of six out of all the camps that the Germans ran during the Holocaust was for death.

    Six camps.....Chelmno, Belzec, Sobibor, /Treblinka, Auschwitz Birkenau, Majdanek...

    Therefore...ANYONE working at those six camps, no matter what they were doing, was contributing to the purpose of the camps themselves. DEATH.

    Accessaory to murder was the charge for Demyanuk. It should have been the same for all workers identified from then on, because of the legal precedent established by the case.

    It's that simple...German police and other investigative bodies had entire lists of people who suddenly qualified for prosecution. But they ran into the problem that most of them had either died already, or were too old to face prosecution.
    The Accountant of Auschwitz was found guilty by his own testimony. He did not spend a single day in prison, and his case remains controversial because he was one of the few workers of those six death camps that admitted to anything.

    Decide for yourself. I'm not lying
     
  3. Takao

    Takao Ace

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    Postwar Germany and the Holocaust
    By Caroline Sharples
    The pertinent bit is here:
    Postwar Germany and the Holocaust

    You should also read this PDF
    https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://scholar.smu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=3194&context=til&ved=2ahUKEwjXp6-hsZvqAhVQm-AKHYHkA7sQFjAAegQIBRAB&usg=AOvVaw08feiOzcKLknO_AzHYsGHu


    I believe the US Army prosecutor was in Advanced age when he gave this interview, IIRC he was in his late 80s-early 90s at the time(the ones I read), and this would explain his memory failing. It is true that he tried 22 defendants...However, 24 defendants began the arraignment process. During arraignment one defendant was in generally poor health, his case was split off & he was tried separately. Also during arraignment, another suffered epileptic fits - his case was also split off and tried separately. Leaving 22 defendants at trial.

    Now, if there were only 22 seats in the courtroom, why did the begin arraignment of 24?

    Which also answers the question: if cases could be split off & tried seperately, then seating in the courtroom was no limitation at all as to the small number of defendants in the Einsatzgruupen trial.

    As to docos, I prefer books with footnotes, so you at least know where the information is coming from, and can fact check it yourself. Docos give no sources for their information. Thus it seems that Miss Wittman, either, intentionally or unintentionally, misrepresented facts that are very easily checked.

    I didn't think you were intentionally lying. However, the facts you presented did not make sense to someone with an interest in the topic.
     
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2020
  4. Christopher67

    Christopher67 Member

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    of the convictions, 85% related to events ranging from 1933-39....nothing to do with the Holocaust as such.

    Interesting to note that Rebecca Wittmann is one of the sources for the pages of this book, written by Caroline Sharples.

    It might be worth looking into who exactly were the producers of "The Accountant of Auschwitz". It may be something out of Yad Veshem, or something to do with the Simon Wiesenthal Centre. I'll have a look and let you know. One wonders whether people like Eli Rosenbaum have any connection to the producers. Certainly the name is suggestive, but one shouldn't make assumptions like that based on just a name.

    I have read other Holocaust literature, but it never occurred to me that this subject matter was still such a political football. I had imagined that modern Germany would be beyond this sort of wrangling, and anxious to let go of the past in a manner that would not reveal anything other than a need to see justice take it's course. Call me naïve,

    Certainly, people like Rainer Hoss have made every effort to reconcile the past with a future that involves much sole searching.
    Perhaps the modern state of a unified Germany can shake off it's emerging right wing nationalism, and finally take its place amongst European nations without this horrible spectre dogging it's every social and political move.

    All I know is that companies like I.G. Farben, that profited directly from the Holocaust, rather than making money from the general industrial effort, companies like Farben still exist in modern Germany, and still have made no effort to put to bed their role in the entire process.

    I thank the Good Lord that my country of Australia is intrinsically linked to our alliance with a country like the United States. It has given us a certain level of political and social stability, and I'm certainly not one of those that trash the United States or it's people. I believe that American intentions are not sinister, and that the majority of Americans really do believe their country is a force for the principles stated in your constitution, that liberty is still alive, and that Americans really do "hold these principles to be self evidant".

    When I visited the country of the United States, I was blown away by how different people were inside their own country, how warm and freindly they treated me, and also just how different people were from state to state even though they all flew the same flag outside their homes.

    Call me a fan.

    Christopher
     
  5. CAC

    CAC Ace of Spades

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    Ya big suck... : )
     
  6. Christopher67

    Christopher67 Member

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    Americans are my heroes......no denying it.....

    Anyhow, that documentary is Canadian produced, out of Ontario.

    Rebecca Wittmann is the one quoting the figures...they are....1945 about 800,000 members of the SS.....over 100,000 investigations....

    Number of people brought to trial "between 1947 and up to the present"....."around 6,200"

    Number of convictions" that resulted in a life sentence".....124

    Rebecca is the "Chair" of Toronto University's "Department of Historical Studies".

    So, after checking the documentary, I have quoted here in this post the exact words that Mrs Wittmann herself uses in the doco itself.

    124 "life sentences between 1947 and the year of the doco itself.

    Of the figure 6,200 people brought to trial, one has to wonder how many of them were Einsatzgruppe, how many were Camp persons, and how many were in the Waffen SS or the Alameigne SS (poor spelling).
    There were only 3,000 odd Einsatzgruppe persons in the four unit's that went into Russia in 1941, A,B,C & D. But the Einsatzgruppe trials at Nuremburg also featured commanders from other units that had committed what they themselves called "reprisals.. Also, some of the "work" of the Einsatz Kommando was taken up by Ukranians, and Latvians, (I'm not certain about Estonians).
    Camp guards were sometimes from Baltic states, as well as Polish men, and probably Slovaks as well.

    I don't know how many "transfers" occurred in the above totals, but I do know that Himmler noted the "effect" that mass shootings were having on the men, and tried to introduce gas vans as an alternative, and then turned to Zyklon as an even quicker and less stressful alternative on top of that. The Death Camps used prisoners to do a lot of the dirty work associated with the day to day function of the gas chambers and ovens themselves, and these prisoners were periodically sent to the gas themselves and replaced with new camp inmates.

    "The Accountant" doco also showed at the Groening trial several prominent Holocaust Deniers. One middle aged to elderly woman was shown being interviewed, and claiming that Auschwitz Birkenau was "only a work camp", wherein she was warned by German police that she was breaking the law and if she continued to state the things that she had been saying to the cameras, she would be arrested.

    Just personally, the Nuremburg Prosecutor was 93 years old at the time of interview, and did not seem to be suffering from memory loss at all, and sounded very much with his mental faculties still very intact.

    Christopher

    P.S. I like Americans....but I like Indians as well. I do not appreciate what the Chinese are doing to Australia at the moment, and feel that Australia should cut its trade ties with China, and bugger the cost for the moment. We will find someone else to buy our very good quality food and wine, and I hope that we can sell our raw materials somewhere other than to China.
     
  7. CAC

    CAC Ace of Spades

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    You always find another job before quitting the one you are in...we need to find buyers for our goods. Australia's iron ore is probably the most superior in the world (about 60% pure - as opposed to China's 30% in their iron ore) So they will continue to buy our Iron, no matter what else is going on. Coal will continue to be bought also (whether we sell it or not) - India will buy a lot of our coal.
    China is probing Australia, it's up to YOU and ME to make it difficult for them, not the walk in systems we have today. They are teaching us a valuable lesson. (Australia is also home to some of the best hackers, we can push back if need be).
    The real fear from China is the taking of the Pacific...we need to keep our allies on our side (this could take plenty of money) the islands could play both sides against each other to get the highest bidder...This is also where the US has dropped the ball badly...particularly right now (they have taken their eye off the ball with the Pandemic and BLM) China is pushing forward while the US is navel gazing...No point in telling them to wake up when Captain Dopey is at the helm...Another term from this drop kick could spell disaster for our region. (And probably the US itself).
    I like Americans as well...but their foreign policy stinks, it always has. It has the habit of making enemies. Australia is about bringing people and countries together for mutual benefit...The US is about domination for it's own selfish desires, a typical super power.
     
  8. Von Ritter

    Von Ritter New Member

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    I have a little trivia for you, did you know that part of Waffen SS Latvian Leigon that survived the War were used as guards at the Nuremberg Trials, and then given new passports and released by the Allies when the trail were concluded. Well it is true, I recently came upon this information and I was very surprised, but facts are facts.


     
  9. Prospero Quevedo

    Prospero Quevedo Active Member

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    That does sound terrible, I guess some people can do the worst things and justify it as means of survival. But I hate anyone who can slaughter children even the us Calvary when they attacked the Indian villages and killed everyone even babies. Yes she was a traitor and should be despised not to mention she was a deserter and in the Russian army in war time is a death penalty so she was subject to capital punishment in any case. Might be why she did what is did figured she was dead anyway.
     
  10. Prospero Quevedo

    Prospero Quevedo Active Member

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    The US sells China tons of scrap steel one of the reasons when they were trying to say the Chinese were having a steel shortage and that's why steel shot up three hundred percent and steel products I said bull shit they get huge amounts of scrap steel from us and make it into stuff to sell to us. Turn out it was part 60 percent tariff on foreign steel thank you mr bush, the rest greedy middle companies adding surcharges and making more profit and did the government do anything on price gouging not a damn thing, lol should have gotten into scrap steel sales a friend could have got me a job in his dad's company he has a house and drives a Mercedes SLC now.
    Besides scrap we sell large amounts of ore, the British once pretty much dominated the merchant seas tried to win it back with a new class of cargo ships the bigest most state of the art and called unsinkable. Ya know the Brits need to get rid of that word every time they use it the ship sinks. Triple hulled hardly any ships are triple. A ship of that class with a large load of ore from the US to Japan sank without a mayday and actually the third one to do so and all sank so fast no mayday and hardly to no survivors. The British launched an investigation and the us coast guard since she left and carried us goods. The coast guard found their inspection team was not doing full inspections and from reports and some photos determined the ship was not well. Ain't aimed and the cargo hatches were in bad shape. A deep sea remot recovered the ships data recorders and photo graphed the wrench and they determined the bow hatch was left open and caused the inking family and friends disputed it say no way they were a top crew they would never do something that stupid. They raised money for an independent investigation. Most of the ship was in pieces completely shattered except the bow to the end of the first hold. Scientists at a university that studies sea waves and ship sinkings determined it didn't shatter because it was flooded the rest of ship imploded because the holds were still lntact full of air. They did simulations reproducing the pressures to prove it using a scale replica of the bow including a full detailed bow hatch they found at deep pressure what little air left blew the hatch and explained the open hatch plus the data recorders helped confirm most of the story. The forward cargo cover faile due to poor maintenance she road low on the bow allow water to rack the deck causing more leaks and she slipped under before the crew could even make it to abandon ship stations. The captain kew the ship was in no condition for heavy waters the navigator had plotted a course to avoid the storm but the captain overrode her order based on a weather report on his laptop that was hours old and totally off. The storm had changed course the navigator had up to the miniute info and knew the captain made a bad decision but didn't argue just followed orders. The new investigation lead the maritime board to fault the captain for not getting up to date info and that crews needed to be trained to more advise their captain of mistakes like pilots of planes there sure two to cross check each other. The ships crew should have told the captain about the change of the storm and the course correction. So sad all those people died because the captain subscribed to the wrong weather service. Poor services like that shouldn't even be allowed to be in business and shut down but the service was even commented for very inaccurate reports the captain should have read the review comments I always check that's how I found out some businesses were still open even after losing their business license. Lol, like one was a restaurant like totally illegal. One place a carpet store lost their license snd not only were still doing business but terribly saw lots of complaint for poor work and couldn't get them to come back, that's why pay on credit card if you get bad work you can get the payment reversed. Did a job new panel install, a company had installed a panel and failed twice plus stopped answering calls the city inspector checked on them and said they didn't even haves valid license to do the job they were suspended. They had charge two thousand to do the job my company charged 2500 to do it right the new service was 200 vs 100 amps. The feeder was too small had to bore out the roof hole and top plate to get the right size pipe in had to use a new panel a the one they used the guy destroyed it. Got the new riser in got the new panel in took two days landed the wires strapped everything down Made it all pretty the inspector signed me off and told the owner he wrote her a letter for the credit card company stating the first company did illegal work and the payment should be void. Learned some things about credit card purchase protection.
     

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