Most Evil men of WW2

Scaramouche, could you possibly agree to the following quote:

"From 1928 to 1938 soviet heavy industry rose in an unprecedented way.
The people's most basic needs and wishes were ignored.
The produstion of consumers goods remained on a very very low level.

But "strategically important" factories likely to be used for the production of ammunition, guns, artillery, tanks, planes, ships....developed at an incredible pace....oil and other strategically important raw materials were exploited in an unprecedented way....

Tough these achievements were steadily exagerated by communist historians, the simple fact of this achievement in potential arms output cannot be ignored."

 

Castelot, l've said as much in earlier posts-but l 've also indicated that this was simply achieved by transfering resources-from the agricultural and consumer sectors at a terrible cost : starving your people-even exporting the scare ood supplies available in orer to generate the hard currecies required to fund his five year plans.thus starving your people by the millions--as Stalin did...You start out with factories that were enormous to begin with, for Russian factories were enormous even prior to 1917, and of course you are going to make some progress;lthough in an extremely inneficcient and wasteful manner .Naval construction, by the way was the Soviet's weak point:under Stalin Soviet shipyards failed to produce warships of the size, complexity and quantity that had bene produced under Tsar Nicholas II. . But if you are going to argue that Stalin's poliicies (which obeyed no other reason that his own wishes) helped to save the USSR in WW2, you should also bear in mind that it was Stalin''s policies as well that placed the USSR in the position it was on 22 June 1941, by signing a pact with Hitler, by liquidating the oficer corps during the purgues of tyhe 1930s, and by pretending that he was a militarygebius, which led what Solshenytzin rightly claims, was a series of the most humiliating defeats in Russian history...That is reality..

 

Yes, and maybe had Stalin and comunism not been in power, Hitler probably would not have become the master of Germany because the fear of comunism in german society is much responsible for the rise of National Socialism.

And Stalin's order to the german communists to help the nazis eliminate the german social democrats(which Stalin considered as the greater evil)didn't help also.
Stalin actually started tpo collaborate with Hitler long before their non-agression pact.
And don't forget that in 1940 he ordered french communists to do all their possible to paralyze french defence.
Everything that led to the soviets being isolated in face of Hitler in june 1941 is entirely Stalin's responsability.

But my original question was how would have been soviet performance in WW2 without Stalins forced industrialisation?

 

If I sound unfriendly to you it is because I am an administrator here and I wish not to let anybody viewing this site get the impression that we support almost McCarthyist attitudes toward communism. No I did not get my information from websites, I am studying history in university as we speak. No I am not a communist and I do not try to make Stalin or his successors look good. No I am not denying any of the atrocities they committed. What I am trying to tell you is that communism is not the same as Stalinism, and that being a communist does not mean by any strech of the imagination that you would support massacres, or wish all Kulaks would die or any such thing.

And NO, I never ever said that communism would have worked, in fact in just about every post I emphasized that it couldn't. So don't try to tell me that I am only speaking good of communism, because that is simply untrue.

 

Well..you sure gave a god imitation..as for me l could care less if "Big Brother" is watching us or reading this message..for what l say has solid historical foundations....and l knew the difference between Marxism and, Marxist Leninism and Stalini way back when. l was in High School....l simply despise them all..and that is my constitutional right to do so Tovarisch GPUschnik... :smok:

P.S.: You fear that "somehone" may consider that "we "(whoever we is) may support McCarthism", but l noticed your prononuced anti-Christian views..which do not necesarrily bother me as l am an Agnostic.However, you are , no doubt; aware that your points of view have offended and offend other members...Shouldn't you be worrying about that?

 

" Nous sommes dans un pot de chambre et y..."..All true, and more grist for my mill.. as far as your question...That depends on who would have been at the helm, Trostky, Kirov, Bukhrarin? or a non-Communist government?..and to a thick headed New Englander from Boston like me the inevitable answer is "A hell of a lot better", for these were more pragmatic men with a greater level of education and realism than old paranoid quasi-ignorant Uncle Joe who hd no conception of economics, or of anything else he was, after all ..that great believer in Lysenkoism... :smok: :

 

Our history books always made great use of the phrase "Stalin dragged the Soviet Union, kicking & screaming, into being a heavily industrialised Superpower"
Scaramouche seems to be arguing that under pretty much anybody else, the Soviet Union would have been equally industrialised, but without as much kicking & screaming.

My personal view - had it been anybody else besides the paranoid & uncaring Stalin, heavy industry would have been (relatively) neglected in favour of more consumer goods - remember, Stalin was very firmly in the 'consolidate what we have, then export Communism' camp, and this, combined with his rather straightforward method of consolidation, ensured that the CCCP would concentrate on armaments. Trotsky, with his 'export Communism' view, would certainly have tried harder to make the CCCP a 'worker's paradise'. However, would this paradise have survived the Nazi invasion? Less people would have welcomed the Germans, but then, the germans cancelled that advantage. Stalin was able to get his people to starve but build factories & produce tanks. Could Trotsky? I doubt it.

 

"

....et nous y serons em****és.

"Double the guards at his grave, so he may not return...."

 

"Exactement, mon ami ! et également "le plus qu'un Stalinizé, le plus on dégénère"

Castelor your view is that ' Stalin was able to get his people to starve but build factories & produce tanks. Could Trotsky? I doubt it "

Trotsky was the man who built the Red Army: he was a multi-faceted genius with a brilliant, more flexible mind than Stalin (Stalin really hated, envied an resented his succeses!) and yet pragmatic enough to adjust to circumstances , he was the "right man at the right time and thw right place"-The USSR could have have had both bread abd butter under anybody else other than Stalin-not only far more efficiently, but without as much carnage and suffering..One example that comes to mind; tankk production in Russia did not begin with Stalin...Copies of the French Renault FT were built in limited numbers as early as 1920-and the first tank of Soviet design, the MS-1(T18) light tank followed in 1923-960 were built..not an an inconsequential figure for the era..and proof that the facilities to produce such vehicles (and in quantity)existed before Stalin seized power. trotsky' was not a paranoic murderer, as Stalin was-and in fact wanted to incorporate many former Tasrist officers into the Red Army, for many were willing to do so: Stalin , disregarding both Trotsky and Lenin had then muredered..Would Trotsky have carried out the infamous Tuchachesky purge (Stalin was reputedly incensed because in direct contradicion to his own "tactics", Tuchachesky advocated the use of tanks in numbers, as Germans such as Guderian were suggesting.., Stalin still thought of them as infantry suppiort weapons-and when he could not come up with sufficient arguments to refute Tuchachevsky, levied trumped up charges which led to this officer's execution and the purges that literally destroyed the officer corps of the Red Army.The weaknesses in the Soviet military aparatus caused by Stalin'a purges (which were highlighted in the Russo-Finnish War of 1939-40) were one of the primordial factors behind the German attack in June 1941 (that as well as Molotov's fateful, tragic-comedy visit to Berlin in 1941 and his harsh treatment of Hitler which angered him. ..The phrase that you quote "Stalin dragged the Soviet Union, kicking & screaming, into being a heavily industrialised Superpower" is a hackneyed statement which does not bear relation to the actual facts: true some industrialization took lace under the Reds; but t Russia, before the revolution ranked fourth among the industrial nations of the world, or do you think perchance that an unidustrialized nation can tunn out dreadnought-class battleships and arms in the quantities produced in Tsarist Russia that l made reference to earlier in this topic .l think not.....

P.S.o not misunderstand my comments on Trostky... mind you, l 'm not letting either Lenin nor Trotsky off the hook, they were the creators of an evil , murderous system made infinetly more cruel by Stalin... :smok:

 

*ahem*
That was me!

I agree that Trotsky would have been a better leader than Stalin. However, Trotsky was outward-looking. Would he really have built up a large amount of heavy industry in the CCCP? Would he have been able to ensure that the Soviet citizens ensured such great hardship to win the war (go on then, bring up historical examples! )

My hackneyed statement is the statement that British schoolkids are taught!
I don't mean that that makes it true, but that was why I brought it up.

As to Soviets vs Tsarists, and the Dreadnaught example...
Which Dreadnaughts? How many? Where were they made? When? What did they do? (yes, the last one has no relavance, I'm just interested!)
Did the new-born CCCP still have the ability to produced them after the Civil War? (although I don't think that any coastal regions were really fought over...)

P.S: Lenin, Trotsky, creators of a cruel & human system? Surely not!

 

Sorry Ricky, Sorry Castelot! (and l must answer this in short hand, as l want to be home early vefore a new snow storm hits this area..)-Yes, Lenin and Trostsky were the creators of a cruel system, because the reign of terror begins with Lenin, not with Stalin.,Stalin simply iexpanded and perfected it..Ricky, who do you think was the creator of the Red Army, who patiently recionstructed it after the revolution (By the way, he admitted 30,000 ex-Tsarist offficer to "build the new state in the rubble of the old state", and who drove them with , vigor, threats of firing squads etc...none other than Leo Davidovitch Bronstein (a,k,a,) Trotsky..A pusilanimous individual could not have accomplished this..Trostky was hell for leather..make no mistakes about that...


The following dreadnoughts were completed under the last Tsar:
Petrapavlosk, Gangout , Sebastopol and Poltava

The first and 3rd were built at the Baltic Works, the other two at the Admiralty works, on Galerny island-
Normal displacement : 23,400 tons-full load 25,850 tons
armament 12 x 305 mm L.52, 16 x 120 mm L.55m 4 x 47 mm, eight machine guns- 6 x 76,2 mm A.A. were installed during the war.
Torpedo Tubes: 4x 18 inch tubes below the water line
Launched 1911-commisioned 1914
Max. speed: Design: 23 knot-Actual 24,6 knot
They were probably the first ships to have the main armament (305 mm guns) mouned in triple turrets
These were followed by

Imperatritsa Maria
Imperatritsa Ekaterina II
Imperator Alesandr III
Imperator Nikolai I

Ot these; all but the the " Ekaterina II " were built by the Russian Shipbuilding Co, the remaining vessel was built by teh Nicolaiev Works & Harves Co.Aarmament: 12 x 305 mm L.55, 18 x 130 mm L.55(except Imperator Nikolai I", which mounted 20 x 130 m L.55) 4 x 76,2 mm A.A., 4 x 47 mm, 4 machine guns
Torpedo tuves: 4 x 18 inch (45 cm) below the water line

The first three were comissioned between 1915 and 1917., "Imperator Nikolai I" was only about 40% complete at the outbreak of the Oct. 1917 revolution. Afterwards further work ceased and this ship, incompleted was scrapped in 1923
Displ. 22,800 tons ( 24,800 full load)

Will give further details of their subsequent fate tomorrow-but will say for now that in 1920, after the Commuist Revolution triumphed; all surviving vessels were renamed. "Petropavlosk ws renamed "Marat", and was refitted and extsensively and modernized in 1931. This shis ship was sunk in the harbor at Kronstadt on 27 September 1941 by a Junkers Ju-87 flown by Hans Ulrich Rudel..


Best Regards!

P.S:

Ricky, here's a photo, ot of hte best quality, admiitedly, it's all l have on the subject) of the "Gangout" and before someone jumps to conclussions.as one celebrated English naval writer did-.the flag it bears is not the Union jack..but the Jack of the Imperial Russian Navy-the color are reversed (the Cross of St. Andrew is blue in a field of Red-Also, this class featured only two two funnels (in case the funnel aft creates , as it did for a friend of mine) the llusion of twin-funnels..

 

Yeah, well, Trotsky did do a heck of a job getting the Red Army organised...
Should we get into a discussion about the Russian Civil War?
(I have started one, in 'Non-World War II History' http://www.fun-online.sk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1769 )

However, that was in rather desperate straights - I think the point still stands that Trotsky would not focus so much on the heavy industry (unlike Josef 'I want tanks' Stalin), and they would be in a relatively worse position to resist the invasion. Could you imagine how quickly the Germans would advance if the CCCP only had half the army it actually did?

Thanks for the info about the Dreadnaughts - it is all new to me.

 

Well, just take the example of the tanks l mentioned earlier-despite the dififculties, in 1923 they began production of over 900, which almost equals US-6-ton tank production in WW1.....

 

btw - nice pic of the Gangout. Is it really a top-notch Dreadnaught? I know it has the armament split of a Dreadnaught (lots of high-caliber & a few med/low caliber for infighting) but it does have lots of antiquated pre-Dreadnaught features, like the gun turrets in the side of the ship...
I must admit to being bemused by the flag also!

how long did it take the CCCP to make those 900 tanks?

 

Actually they were completed in 1928-31, but under the auspices of a Bureau established n 1923..Well, since we are talking about Russia (not that un-Russian creation known as the CCCP-)-the Bolsheviks did not complete anything as sophisticated as these dreanouights, and in fact they had to resort to Italian technical asistance to complet the cruisers Kirov and Maksim Gorski-(which were very Italian in appearance-but not in performance, as they were considerted failures, since they were rather topped heavy..As far as battleships, when the Reds (let us call a spade a spade..) modernized the surviving dreadnoughts inheritted from the Tsarist Navy, they opted to keep the sponsoon-mounted armament..


Best regards!

P.S. yes, the flag does lead to the wrong conclussions..a well known British writer (we'll be charitable, and will not mention his name...) merely assumed that they had been captured by te British xpeditionary force in 1919..because they bore the Union Jack (sic) . .

 

Yes! May the hounds of hell urinate on his pitiful soul! :angry:

 

top three


1.Stalin
2.hitler
3.tojo

 

My wife´s Grandfather served on MARAT. When it was hit by bombs, the poor man did not hear it at all. He was busy in the ship´s machine compartment. He noticed that something was wrong when the other people began to drag one another to the exit door.
He made it though. Later he served with the harbors guns and supplied his wife (who was in the blockaded Leningrad) with some food.
Their appartment´s windows were opposite the city´s ZOO. She saw the last elephant being killed and carved by the population. Even the bones were gone very soon after.
After all, it´s better to eat an elephant than your neighbor, I think. :roll:

 

That would depend on who your neighbour is. I know a few people who, if they were my neighbour would come very cloes to it.

 

So be careful GP. Our little forum CANNOT afford to miss another prolific writer. We´ve just lost KBO. I am still thinking of him.
Maybe he was eaten?