Most under appreciated battle of the Ostfront?

Get a copy of "Tragodie of the Faithful" covering the 11th SS and 23rd SS Nederland / and "The Courland Battles", just released.....both by German author Wilhelm Tieke and both in English.
There are only few books on the Baltic 194 through 1945, but one good book comes to mind through Motorbuch Verlag "Der Kampf um Ostpreussen" by Duekert and Grossmann. The book originally came out in 1960 and has gone through several different publioshers over the years. Still a classic though the maps are small but are good. the pics are dark, and as the title suggests the book is in Deutsch.

E

 

Thanks, Erich! Sounds really interesting! Und wenn es ist auf Deutsch besser für mir!

 

Well, gentlemen, I grabbed a bit more info on this area... from "SS: The Blood Soaked Soil", G. Williamson, 0-7603-0185-9. (Author distinctly seems biased towards the SS... a bit too much admiration in many of the passages, so his specific accuracy could be questioned. His general stuff seems to check out though.)

Narva-
III SS Pz Corps, inculding 11th SS Panzergrenadier Div. Nordland and ss Freiwilligen Panzergrenadier Brigade Nederland and Sturmbrigade Wallonien - apparently these untis composed almost entirely of foriegn volunteers, Dutch, Scandanavian, Estonian, Swiss, etc.
After the russians re-took Leningrad, germans units fell back and by January-February 44 III SS Pz. Corps took up positions at fortress-city of Narva. Held off ferocious russian attacks until late JULY- over 5 months holding off the full strength of russian attacks.
In my opinion, german defensive operations such as this are far more impressive than those like barbarossa. One understrength panzer corps was able to improvise and hold out against incredibly strong russian forces. And we must keep in mind that by this point, many of the russian forces were far more skilled than before, and their equipment was also often on par (if not better) than german equipment.
So there's probably my case for the most under-appreciated battle on teh eastern front.

Erich- the Williamson source above is the same one I was recalling iffo on Spring Awakening from. Williamson is really hard on the operation. "... the weather and Hitler's ludicrously inflated expectations combined to turn the attack into a rout."!! He goes on to describe the operation failing in large part due to Hitler's insistence on ridiculous levels of security. Sepp Dietrich, commanding 6thh SS Pz Army for the Op, was not allowed to inspect his troops or the terrain prior to the battle for fear of the russians spotting him. "By Mid-March, the 6th SS Pz Army had only around 200 tanks and self-propelled guns still operational, prompting Dietrich to ask, without success, that the offensive be halted."
Joachim Pieper, in command of a 1st SS King Tiger battalion, made it to within 40km of Budapest before being called back...
that's all according to Williamson, who seems biased towards the SS. Hmmm....

 

Crazy, you are absolutely right about Narwa and their exceptional defensive combat-performance. However it is not adequate to compare with "Barbarossa"'s succes for two reasons: One, a defensiva and an ofensive battle cannot be compared. And two, because "Barbarossa" as an offensive battle is more important, because wars are won with offensives, aren't they?

And at Narwa, I think that the men on the ground did a hell of a fight, but they could not have survived without those 11 inches guns behind them which smashed the Russians many times with an accuracy of 80%!!!

 

Crazy--gordon williamsons books do have SOME useful information in them--but mostly they are trash.

Try mentioning his name to any German vet he has interviewed--especially a Waffen SS vet--and you will see a man in his late 70's or early 80's, turn beet red with anger.

Williamson ****ed these vets--not only NOT paying them for their contributions (he reniggen on his promised amounts--according to three RKT vets I know who he interviewed) also he screwed a few RKT vets out of their RK's

And if you feel im being a bit too harsh on him--please try contacting Herrn Remy Schrijnen, Ernst Barkmann and Joachim von Ribbontrop. They are all still living and these are three men who got ****ed by williamson.

I threw williamsons books away BECAUSE of his mistreatment of these men AND because two of these menare personal friends of mine.

This posting isnt against you nor meant to disrespect you in any way, shape or form.

 

No disrespect taken, C.! I'm generally sceptical of most sources, especially anything that seems as biased as Williamson...
You probably noticed my disclaimer on his book- I only use it for general info. I'd assume the general stuff is RELATIVELY accurate- correct?
Note that I did not use W.'s numbers or specifics... I didn't believe them to begin with.

That's kind of strange though- it seemed to me like Williamson was a big fan of the SS... wonder why he decided to turn around and screw over those vets...
Thanks for the tip though... I can certainly understand your feelings! sounds like a real a**hole.
(Willliamson, not you!!!)

[ 30 July 2002, 01:34 PM: Message edited by: CrazyD88 ]

 

Well, Friedrich, I'd have to respectfully disagree. I would say you can compare offensive and defensive battles. Not in the tactics used, but in the significance and performance. The significance of the battle, how important it is in the big picture, can be great for both offensive and defensive campaigns. And the performance of the troops can be compared...
My main though there was: barbarossa was certainly impressive, but the russians were severly limited in many respects, and the germans were attacking wiht many troops and equipment. At Narva, it was basically the opposite- but unlike the russian forces in barbarossa, the german at Narva held their ground.

I'll have to check- my sources did not mention any naval support. Narva was relatively far inland- wasn't the navy supporting the courland operations, not the Narva bridgehead?

You know, that's actually a REALLY good question you bring up! I'll have to think about that some more...

 

Perhaps I am wrong and it is Curland... let me make a little research.

Well... it is that you are comparing the Red Army during "Barbarossa" with the German Army in Narwa. Then it is fine, because they are two defensive battles...

Carl, I didn't understand exactly what that Williamson did, but I did understand he was or is a son of...

 

Thanks Crazy And you assumptions on him and the general info are correct. The first book I picked up--I think I bought 3 or 4 of williamsons books, the first one I picked up gave a history of the nazi party, some info I never had known at that time--plus had some useful info on a few Freikorps units, and some good generally known unit numbers, combat records etc. williamson IS alot biased in his books with heavy leanings to the Waffen SS.

The only thing I will give him credit for, is that through reading one of his books (I forget which title it is at the moment) but I learned a few Waffen SS RKTs names, and later became VERY good friends with one in particular--Herrn Remy Schrijnen. If it had not been for that one book--I would have most likely never have known of Remy--nor have had a day long visit with him and his wife-Joanna, in Hagen.

BTW, Joanna is an excellent cook. Susanne and I ate Lunch and Dinner with the Schrijnens. Remy is a gentleman, who being in his 80s, could still probably stop a T-34 tank assault. This guy is in most excellent health, and it tough as nails.

Ill never forget that when Susanna and I had to leave their home--I will never forget how Joanna's face turned red by blushing--because I had kissed her hand. Remy fully approved with no problems and was impressed. At any rate--they are top rate people in my opinion. Today--I look at Remy as a Grandfather I never had, as well as Joanna, a Grandmother I would have loved to have. This is also how I feel about the vets of U 181, as some of them look at me as a grandson, and I they as my grandfathers.

I know this probably sounds very strange, but read any topics involving U 181 and these men--and you will understand why I feel this way.

I was also very blessed to have met a Gebirgsjager RKT at Garmisch-Partenkirchen, when Susanne and I stayed at Forsthaus Graseck. We not only ate a meal with him, but did a hike down the mountain with him.

 

(first off- stupid question that I think I already know- RKTs= Iron Cross reciepients?)

I'd agree with your estimation of W.'s work. As soon as I read it, the pro-SS bias really suprised me. I have actually studied the W. SS a pretty good amount while studying the russian front- and they were certainly impressive fighting units. But Williamson- he's out of hand! Every mention of SS units sounds like he is talking about the most courageous and impressive battle of all time. He becomes very transparent very quickly.
Your post does not sound at all strange... I wish I'd had some of the same opportunities as you to meet some of these people. I would love to talk with some of these vets, just to hear their recollections and impressions.

Friedrich- isn't every battle defensive from one side?

 

Well, yes all battles have a defensive side...

RKT = Ritterkreuzträger (Knight's Cross recipients)

Was? Sprichst du Deutsch nicht?

 

Well, now it seems I know one line in german- "what? you don't speak any german?"
Is that correct??
(in other words, no, I don't speak any german! )
guess I should learn some...

 

What you cannot understand German ?

E

 

Literally: "What? Don't you speak German?"

But I have realised you don't.

But you will learn something in this place!

 

I'm already picking some up... slowly!
And it certainly would help in studying ww2 and the eastern front, no?

 

Yes ! I'd suggest typing in on your search engines some Battle on the Ost Front like Stalingrad and look for a Deutsche seite, from there read through slowly and see if you pick up some familiar words. This will help immensely. I understand Deutsch better than I can spell or speak it, and I started back in the 1960's when Munin Verlag was producing some of their W-Ss histories in German. I hadn't really a clue but forced myself to understand the sentances, which are not really that hard.......wish my German was a sgood as my families....go ahead you can't lose a thing, and besides it's a lot of fun. No one is ever too old.

E

 

Crazy--this is my best line in German. Mein Deutsch ist veri schlecht, Unfortunately, but, ich aim learnen.

 

I think it would be most advantageous if you would all study German military terms which are usually included in the back of most books these days. It would be a big help in the phraseology used and would make things much easier in the long run....just a thought....

E

 

Mein Gott, mit diesen Herrn!!!

 

Mein Gott!!! What am I going to do with these kids?!