Nazi's & Western Allies Combine Forces Against Russia

See my other what if thread for my reply http://www.ww2f.com/what-if/19837-what-if-i-didnt-reply-thread-where-these.html

 

A suggestion: Seeing as how this Red Star - White Star war topic seems rather popular, maybe we could do a simulation with discussion on it in somewhat more detail; see where it goes rather than keep making generalized arguments pro and con.

 

Popular? In the sense that quasi-flame wars are popular?

 

Simulation... what did you have in mind. I suggested to Slonik that we play a game of Command and Conquer Red Alert as it deals with this subject.

Quasi-Flame wars... does anyone not like fire? That is why they seem popular.

 

The only thing I would take for granted in this crystal ball alternate divination contest, is that USA would have used nukes.

Considering the reasons Truman gave to explain why Hiroshima and Nagasaki, (shorten a agony of war and saving the lives of thousands young Americans), I don't see USA withstanding, to say the least, protracted eastern-front style lossrate without using the big bombs.

As per guessing if the Tiger III equipped Germano-Commonwealth troops would or would not have beat the Sino-Sovietic army in Eastern Prussia, I can't tell

 

Have I ever shown you this?

 

poor beast

 

So, I take it that Za has something against Democrats thumping on them like that.....

 

No i meant that it was way to convenient for the U.S to stand by its neutrality act and wait around until you were attacked first and what of the neutrality act that you hid behind, what would have happened at the last possible minute Japan had cancelled its PH mission and did nothing to America but decided to attack Malaya instead a British possesion or Australia, would America have declared war on Japan, no it would not, it would have sat back and allowed Japan to reign supreme in the Pacific, just as you did with Germany in Europe, i'll grant you you one if Japan or Germany had done nothing to you you would have done nothing, Isolationist America (circa 1939-41) was not prepared to get its hands dirty for democracy, but will do it now for oil in the middle east.

 

The US would not have used nuclear weapons in any continuation war, because of the morality of using such weapons AGAIN, just after destroying 2 Japanese cities in WW2. World outrage would have made the US the pariah country of the world, and US leaders have always understood this reality.

Any continuation war would of had to of been waged conventionally, which the US was certainly capable of doing.

Note: Nuclear weapons were not used in both protracted wars in Korea and Vietnam just because of this very reason.

 

No. There was no world outrage at the time. The US would have had no problem using additional atomic bombs and by 46 would have been manufacturing at least 1 per month.

Korea was another question. Note that Mac wanted very much to use them. Truman however wanted to contain the war to the Korean peninsula and the knowledge that the Soviets also had them introduced a further constraint on their use.

 

Correct, no world outrage at the use of atomic weapons against Japan; a vicious enemy from the get-go. However, turning such weapons against a recent Ally in the fight against the Axis would have been something altogether different. From that point on (nukes used) every country on earth would have felt intimidated by every move the US made.

 

Possibly and possibly not. A lot would depend on how the conflict started, how it was running, and how the bombs were used. From August of 45 to 46 isn't long. Indeed if the Soviet West conflict started before August the bombs might have been held for use vs the Soviets instead of being used on Japan.

 

What?!! The US would have not hesitated to use every nuclear weapon at their disposal at the earliest possible point. There was no moral delimma about such use in the late 40's. The US was already testing their weapons post war on a regular basis.
How many tests were made in the Marshalls? Nevada? Hanford in Washington state was cranking out bomb material as fast as they could.
There was no liberal / feminist squimishness about slagging the planet in 1946. I have absolutely no doubt that if the US had nuclear weapons available they would have not hesitated for a second to use them back then.

 

Not even speaking of the usual pro-life sissies who would have whined about a few foetus being collateral-vaporized in the process.

 

WHAT?!! you say, and enhanced with 2 exclamation points as though such a decision (to not use nukes) would not have even been considered by American/Allied leaders in 1945-46. Nice tug on my chain; to precipitate a flame war, I suppose. But, there is much more to consider.

OK, allowing that one big nuke could be manufactured monthly in the 1945-46 time frame. Then what? Completely different circumstances would have prevailed between dropping nukes on Japan and dropping them on the SU.

At the time of the Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombings, Japan was a totally wasted enemy. Its navy at the bottom of the sea, Tokyo firebombed to ashes, air force all but gone............a finished opponent. In fact, the Enola Gay and Bockscar bombers had nothing more than a walk in the park delivering their nukes. No antiaircraft fire to dodge, no air force fighters to worry about...........these bombers actually flew alone to and from their targets, so assured were they of complete mastery of the sky over Japan.

Nuking the SU in a continuation war in 1945-46 would have been very different proposition. Unlike a defenseless Japan, the SU at that time was in a very strong offensive/defensive position. Any Allied bomber (with fighter escort, of course) carrying a nuke would have had to penetrate massive SU antiaircraft fire, hundreds of fighter planes, etc.

Nuke target? Unlike Japan, with its isolated (island) and distant (from Allied troops and civilians) targets containing only the enemy (Japanese), any SU target brings additional factors to consider. Can't use the bomb anywhere near the front lines for obvious reason. And any nukes used on the mainland brought the possibility of fallout problems.

Finally, vaporize everyone? Women and children, the old, the sick and dying, pows, all those just plain unfortunate to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. The end justifies the means? No thanks, don't think so. The Nazis and Japanese militarists operated on this theory. Mankind can't go down that road!

 

Soviet air defense against high altitude, and in particular night time, bombing attack was negilible. They had relatively few radars in service and virtually everything they did have was either on par with early war Allied or German set or were Allied early and mid war sets.
They had no nightfighter force. They were experimenting with a handful of aircraft types and airborne radar but had no system in place to use what little they had. To compound this they, even moreso than the Japanese, lacked a high altitude fighter force. Virtually everything in their inventory was optimized for operations at or below 15,000 feet. Just intercepting a B-29, not even to mention the much faster B-29D (post war redesignated B-50) that was just coming into service, would have been a very difficult proposition for the Soviets in late 1945 or 1946.
The Soviet air defense system relied primarily on 76mm and 85mm guns that could barely reach the altitudes that US bombers flew at (the Germans went to 105mm and 128mm for this exact reason) making them far less effective. Few of their guns had radar fire control and those that did were using the SON-2 radar that was a copy of the early war British GL Mk II set and obsolete. Even against Bomber Command flying at much lower altitudes the Soviets would have had little choice but to resort to box barrages that would score few kills but consume prodigious amounts of ammunition.

As to the Allies "vaporiz(ing) everyone." The world was a very different place in 1945. The US would have been far more readily willing to do just that to win a war than they might be today. Whether "mankind can't go down that road" or not would have been an irrational position in 1945. The Allies, just like the Soviets would have and could have back then.

 

Wrong

Read about The Effects of Nuclear Radiation DOD publication released 1963

How close do you think US troops were in slit trenches to Atomics in the 50s?

Well they were in 2 cities and that was the price Imperial Japan paid for Pearl Harbor and starting the war with the United States.

First off, I know I'm in trouble responding to someone who quotes Jewel in their signature.

The Japanese were not a defeated enemy. Had the bombs not been dropped the US would have had to have invaded Japan. If you are familiar with Bushido and the militarist society, then you know this to be true. Proven by what the Marines encountered in Okinawa and Iwo Jima. All fight for the Emperor, no exceptions, very different from Germany where you had mass surrenders of Military units on the Western front and most of us know what happened on the Ostfront, Gott ist tot.

 

Radiation a problem? Did you ever read anything about the post-war US nuclear bomb tests performed through the 50's? How about test "Smokey II?" This occured in 1954 and was one of a series of similar tests using above ground low altitude or surface burst nuclear weapons of 50 to 100 KT in Nevada. In Smokey II the US Army had troops in trenches (yes, this is real and they actually did this) just 1000 yards from ground zero. Thirty minutes after the bomb detonated the troops were ordered out of their trenches and then marched across ground zero with absolutely not protective gear!! Yes, this actually happened. The US Army wanted to test the survivability of unprepared troops in the face of nuclear attacks.

To somehow dismiss the US using nuclear weapons in the late 40's or early 50's is simply naieve at a grade school level. It smacks of a politically correct and shallow understanding of politics and military affairs in the late 40's through the 50's.

I don't know about you fjrosetti, but I can remember going through drills in grade school where we got under our desks to shelter from a nuclear attack. That was the reality of things well into the 60's before the West lost its spine.