No Barbarossa No bombing of Germany

Erich, I never denied the fact that German fighter squadrons were not a viable force. We all know that German pilots had great successes against a much superior force (in East and West), such as the Panzer crews achieved enormous successes against lots of also superior tank formations.

But no one can deny the fact that even with the greatest pilots and greatests machines (the latter not so true) the Luftwaffe couldn't do anything significant to change the tide of the war. It doesn't matter if you shoot down 1.000 Russian aeroplanes since they'll build 10.000 more while you can't afford losing 100.

If that's irrelevant to you too, what can I say?

 

Fried, I understand what you are trying to say in your last posting but we have to go back to your statments concerning 1943 and where the Luftwaffe was present. In 1943 the Luftwaffe WAS a viable force still and only during the latter part (Herbst) were some of the day fighter gruppen called back to the Reich, but again not all that many presume. I tried to point out that many if not most recon and bomber gruppen were kept in the Ost to battle increasing Soviet resistance in the air and on the ground and this led to in addition of many new and revamped old ground attack units with updated equipment. Especially the Junkers 87 Geschwadern which now had a 10.(Pz) staffel of Ju 87G's in their line ups as an integral part....... Klar ?

We two may also be touching on something different as well as we both have had chats covering our two different viewpoints covering 1944-45 as to whom had the air superiority, but we need not go into this......

I need a Kölsch !

~E

 

OK, I think we both see the other's points and neither of us are wrong. Somewhere in the middle is the truth.

OK, this discussion is finished for me.

 

I finally have been able to get the book, its tittle is "Luftwaffe" and was written by Dr John Pilmott, an academic of Sandhurst Military Academy. The book is very nice and has more than 200 inedit photographs. Now that I re-read it I now see Erich's points. I was mistaken since the Luftwaffe was not banned from the skies. It managed to deploy a large number of aircraft in the Eastern Front in 1944, a little bit before 'Bagration'. But still the Red Air Force quickly gained air supperiority over the needed sectors and could easily overwhelm the Germans on ground.

Maybe I should start a new thread.

 

To answer the original question here, no, that Germany doesn't invade Russia makes little difference in the long run in the West as far as the air war goes.
First, in the matter of quantity the Germans would still find themselves overwhelmed by British and US production.
If pilot quality goes unchanged, then by 1943 the Germans are hurting once again. Increased aircraft numbers only provide increased losses as the US and British pilot training programs hit their stride and begin to supply large numbers of well trained replacements that the German program does not.
In technology the Germans (due largely to the anti-technology orientation of the Nazi hierarchy)particularly electronics the Germans are once again at a disadvantage. This means any bombing offensive will meet with unacceptably high casualities on their part while the Allied bombing campaign would still go forward but, most likely with initially reduced goals due to the increased presence of the Luftwaffe.
It basically boils down to the Germans simply not being able to produce the quantity and quality of aircraft and pilots necessary to win against Britain and the US whether Russia is in the war or not.

 

Can you T.A. be more precise on this, please.

I mean would this mean that targets in Germany would not be bombed? Or Berlin left alone? This would mean quite a setback for the official requirements of the bombing plan in the long run. As well no propaganda victories of Bombing the big German cities?

As well what do you think of the loss figures for the allied, as they were already 2-10%, mean being about 5% I think ( correct me if I´m wrong), what would happen to this if the Germans could, say put 500 fighters for the daytime activities instaed of the 200-300 used in 1943-44, and as well double the night time fighter number, as planes used as bombers in the eastern front could be used for nachtjagd?

 

Can you T.A. be more precise on this, please.

I mean would this mean that targets in Germany would not be bombed? Or Berlin left alone? This would mean quite a setback for the official requirements of the bombing plan in the long run. As well no propaganda victories of Bombing the big German cities?

As well what do you think of the loss figures for the allied, as they were already 2-10%, mean being about 5% I think ( correct me if I´m wrong), what would happen to this if the Germans could, say put 500 fighters for the daytime activities instaed of the 200-300 used in 1943-44, and as well double the night time fighter number, as planes used as bombers in the eastern front could be used for nachtjagd?

</font>[/QUOTE]Well, look at the way the original strategic bombing campaign was managed. The early attacks by both Britain and the US had targets nearer to England or in occupied countries. The initial US daylight attacks were in France with fighter escort. It was only later in the war when the Allies had greater numbers and much more experiance that deeper penetrations were being regularly made.
In this scenario the Allies would have to content themselves to shallower raids until their numbers could bear on the Luftwaffe sufficently to prevent prohibitive losses. By, say, only attacking German coastal cities and the Ruhr early on they could limit exposure to the German defenses while carrying on the air war. Yes, the Allies would still have to limit their casualities to around 5% overall as they did originally.
As far as the two sides equipment goes, the nachtjagd's biggest challenge would be overcoming the huge advantage in electronic technology the Allies possessed. Numbers alone here confer little advantage. The Wilde Sau type night fighting resulted in nearly suicidial casualities among its pilots so it is no substitute for proper nightfighters and without good navigation aids and radar that works they are going to have the same difficulities they faced originally.
By day the US still would have to put up an escort as large or larger than that of the Germans. That is doable so all we end up with here is increasing the size of the fight for the same results.
The bottom line still is Germany lacks the resources to produce the planes and pilots to overcome the British and American air offensive.
Of course even in this scenario eventually the US gets nuclear weapons and then, if the Germans are still in the game so to speak, all bets are off and the likelyhood is a number of German cities end up vaporized in short order.