North Pole Movement

1. Oh really...?

2. The most important oil products, such as benzin/gasolin and various plastics are very environmentally unhealthy = bad for the humans too. Pumping oil is also bad for the environment (e.g. Gulf of Mexico, anyone?)! It doesn't matter, whether one taxes the oil and/or the products. The point is to tax the polluting.

What I meant was, that I personally can't make tax decisions, especially for other countries. That doesn't mean, that I didn't know what should be done. A very good way would be to make the polluters pay - so, that ALL the costs were included in the prices of various products.

Unfortunately getting tired does not help. Denial is not the way to improve anything.

Perhaps you haven't realized the enormous price tags of various climate catastrophes, that keep on getting more frequent and more severe? Who do you think pays for them...?

As I explained earlier, the price of oil is so cheap, because:
- the international economy is bad = less demand
- new methods of producing oil + new producers = more supply
- all costs of oil are not included in the price = artificial discount

 

Yes really. My point clearly was that some uses of oil have little or no environmental impact others may even have a positive one and by taxing oil you tax them at the same level as the worse offenders. So it is hard to justify or come up with a reasonable basis for taxing oil for environmental reasons. A case can be made by the way for plastics being as important or more important than gasoline and not all plastics are bad for the environment. Indeed to a great extent plastics don't have to be bad for the environment, it is to a large extent how they are disposed of that has the real impact where with gasoline it is how it is used. Gas taxes make much more sense if that's your objective. Many things aren't good for the environment if things go wrong, I seem to recall a couple of atomic power plants that also caused some issues and dams can as well.

You say you know what should be done but speak only in generalities and rather amorphous ones at that. Hardly a plan of action in my book. Again you have no idea what "all the costs" are so there is no way to include them in the prices.

As to your last point there is no way to include all the costs of anything in the price. It's simply impossible to determine what all the costs are in the way that you mean it. So suggesting the impossible doesn't really help much does it? Defining "artificial" in a way that includes essentially every product made for sale doesn't have much utility either does it? It appears to be more of a rhetorical device to make your position look better than anything useful or really relevant.

 

Thanks for everyone's contributions here.
Will try a different angle keeping in mind i am knowledge lite.
Watched a Nova show - Extreme Cave Diving. Was very well done. Please watch it...The first half was amazing. The second half made me sit up and marvel at the secrets it held.
They were diving into blue holes, which at one time were dry caves. They were looking for stalagmites formed over 200,000 years by dripping water (this is way before the caves were filled by water-eons ago).
Geochemists cut down a stalagmite, and halved it lengthwise in order to see the layers within (like the rings in a tree).
Within each band, is the climate biography of a specific period. Each band contained info on how much rain, the chemicals in that rain, soil and air, and even the temperature.
It showed there were 5 different climate changes over the last 80,000 years.
2 curious details emerged.
At least 1 of the climate changes came very abruptly...At the end of the last ice age about 11,000 years ago- conditions changed radically within a 50 year period. From dry to wet. Accompanied by a rise in temperature and sea level.
Some of the climate events were preceded by a mysterious black band in the stalagmite. The black bands contained iron...Is there a link between climate change and iron?
Divers found a red band in the cave walls about an inch thick (iron). Which means thousands of years ago, the island was covered in red dust.
They theorize that the Sahara- 4,000 miles away- during severe drought created towering dust storms which deposited the iron into the caves.
The red bands coincide with major climate changes.
*Each major climate change was preceded by a drought in the Sahara/Africa when temperature and sea levels rose.
This is conclusive evidence man does not cause climate change, and that previous climate changes happen faster (decades) than anyone thought.
But this evidence will be ignored. No money in the truth.

 

One way it was proposed to pull some CO2 out of the atmosphere was to dust the ocean with iron. This tends to stimulate the growth of phytoplankton which sinks when it dies but incorporates CO2 while it's alive. So yes Iron can have an impact on the environment. Or it can be an indicator of other events that may. Volcanic eruptions or meteor impacts for instance.

There is no conclusive evidence by the way that man doesn't cause climate change. It would be surprising if we didn't. The real question is just how much of the change people are responsible for and that is not very well defined at this point. Indeed even trying to define it becomes rather problematic if climate is indeed chaotic which it appears to be.

 

5 major climate changes in the last 80,000 years. Man was an incapable cause then, so why would we be responsible for this one.
Anyone who thinks Agore and his ilk aren't goring us with alarmist bs has swallowed the hook, line and sinker.

The billions collected are not going where it is supposed to go. Gores of the world are pocketing most of it. Why don't people understand that fact.
Even some of the money that does make it to poor countries- goes to things that have nothing to do with climate change.
Savanah elephant call "studies", an African "love movie festival", uniforms for park rangers, etc etc.
This is an important read, with proper links:
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/E/EU_CLIMATE_COUNTDOWN_FUNNY_MONEY?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2015-12-11-08-29-24

An inconvienient truth, indeed.

It is just a climate hustle.
http://www.breitbart.com/london/2015/12/08/climate-hustle-perfect-antidote-al-gores-inconvenient-truth/

Most alarmists are clowns like dicaprio and other ACTORS. Why are actors quoted about anything that matters? They, like thegores expect us to live with a small foot print, but they can't be expected to walk the talk. Hollywood is one of the most wastefull industries around.
http://www.breitbart.com/big-hollywood/2015/12/10/leo-dicaprio-now-officially-joke-canada-confuses-chinook-wind-climate-change/
Maybe i should start smoking again. Stuff didn't bother me near as much.

 

Gore is on the attack again, looking for more money that will not solve the Earths temperature variations.
Climate is so complex, there is no way we could guess (build accurate models) which would predict future climates.
Remember their claims- NY and other cities should be underwater by now.

Forget their hockey stick graphs and tweaked temp data etc etc.

That the Earths Poles are moving around, it is impossible to predict future climates.
If it was easy to predict, weathermen would be billionaires.
Yes, the climate changes. Always has and always will.

Very clever to start your own business fingering naturally occurring events.
I'm thinking of taxing time itself. Who wants some of that business...
We can repeat the same sentences over and over until it becomes a talking point, write some bogus numbers about how time is effected by man (which surely is true), then start saying the world will end as we know it if something (taxes) isn't done about it.

http://www.examiner.com/article/shifting-earth-axis-pushes-north-pole-dramatic-turn-eastward

 

Still looks beautiful to me, even if the Thames does get a hell of a lot wider and flood everything that I've known.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=irwPKwPKf3E
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_JUCfX1P1ik

 

Where i live, used to be a tropical paradise. Lots of trees and large animals roaming about.
Those animals died off, our climate became cold. Now, it is bald ass prairie.
5. Count them... 5, major climate changes in the last 80,000 years. One of which occurred within a 50 year period.

Talk about left spreading fear, and ignoring real dangers posed to our environment.
Fukushima
The Great Pacific Garbage Patch (plastic island)
Ben has mentioned stuff in drinking water. The list is endless.
But MMGW requires immediate taxes.

 

We had a flood near Calgary. On a flood plain. People were like "hey, my very expensive house was destroyed, i need money to rebuild".
No. Buildings were built on a flood plain/ too close to water. duh
Time, weather waits for no man.

 

How do you guys have a national health insurance program, but no national flood insurance program?
https://www.floodsmart.gov/floodsmart/pages/about/nfip_overview.jsp

 

Yeah, the gov did cover a lot of costs just not full...Bothers that relatively wealthy can claim for building on a flood plain.
We aren't talking the Nile delta here. Small creek that overflowed. Beautiful land, but its near a creek that is doomed to flood sooner or later.
Tough beans i say.
If people can afford mid 6 digit homes, they don't have a lot of sympathy with regular folk - and can afford to take a hit.

 

If they can afford the 6-figure homes, then they can afford to pay the premium premiums for private flood insurance. Unfortunately, most think that flooding is covered under normal insurance, or else, they think that it will not happen here.

 

Yeah, insurance is very capable of voiding coverage. Very good.

 

"Throughout Earth's history, global climate has shifted between periods of glacial cooling that led to ice ages, and interglacial periods of relative warmth, such as the present. Past studies from high latitudes have indicated that about 430,000 years ago—at a point known as the Mid-Brunhes Event (MBE)—peak temperatures and levels of atmospheric carbon dioxide in interglacial cycles were suddenly bumped up by about a third. But no one has known whether this was also the case closer to the equator.


By studying the records from tropical stalagmites, Adkins and his team found no evidence of such a bump. Instead, precipitation levels remained the same across the glacial cycles, indicating that the tropics did not experience a major shift in peak interglacial conditions following the MBE. "The stalagmite records have glacial cycles in them, but the warm times—the interglacials—don't change in the same way as they do at high latitudes," Adkins says. "We don't know what that tells us yet, but this is the first time the difference has been recorded."
At the same time, some changes did appear in the climate records from both the high latitudes and the tropics. The researchers found that extreme drying in the tropics coincided with abrupt climate changes in the North Atlantic, at the tail end of glacial periods. It is thought that these rapid climate changes, known as Heinrich events, are triggered by large ice sheets suddenly plunging into the ocean."

http://www.caltech.edu/news/caltech-researchers-use-stalagmites-study-past-climate-change-4196

 

Thanks G, for your always informative posts.
I try to bring discussion, but can't really back my arguments.
Rely on peeps like youse to bring substance to my- often, left field, assertions.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Out_of_left_field

 

It's great that you do make these assertions, because we all need to re-examine and even re-think how we see things from time to time.

 

Yes, john kerry left the election to go pollute Antarctica- because that's what liberals do. Complain about Man and his crappy ways- then proceed to be crappy...Ahh, the klinton elite...jet planes, environmental conferences, red carpets, multiple cars and homes. How on earth could the klintonites have lost the peoples vote
http://cnsnews.com/news/article/patrick-goodenough/his-very-long-trip-kerry-producing-much-co2-average-american-1-year
edit- Antartica, not the North Pole

 

One Democratic Rep. from Kansas likened it to: "The American people giving a giant middle finger to Washington elites. We finally had enough after 8 years of this."

Look Obama tried, he built up Washington DC as bastion America. I guess some trickled down. I hope he really doesn't want America to fall to the Fanatical Muslims? Hard to prove one way or the other although plenty think they have it figured out.

Mods - You can move this to a different thread if needed with apologies.

One America time is all I am saying. Unite and let's get to work and rebuild the rust belt.