Noth Africa

Drae PzJgr: I agree, and in my longhanded way, I did say that Monty was too cautious-not unlike US Army General Lucas was at Anzio. Only difference was that Lucas was sacked, monty was not. Churchill made a statement of: "I had thought we had landed a tiger, but all we got was a stranded whale" or words to that effect.

I am aware that Brit commanders disliked Monty too, and it was because of his attitude on presented facts. Monty thought he was above listening to his junior commanders, and felt he was brillient just like Adolf Hitler thought the same about hisself.

Darn good points you made Richard, I agree with what you said.

 

Montgomery no doubt made enemies amongst the British, when he first took over in NA he sacked quite a few senior officers. At a guess, success seems to have gone to his head later on. But early on he carried out quite a few organisational and operational reforms eg abolished the box defence concept and the breaking up of divisions to form ad hoc battle groups which had resulted in poorly balanced and uncordinated attacks.

Probably the best British General in NA was Richard O'Connor who had blitzkreiged the Italians but was captured soon after Rommel appeared. He was bold and not afraid to exploit any weakness by moving around resistence to attack the rear.

As you are probably are aware, M though highly of Lightning Joe Collins, apparently the two got on well together.

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sand digger

 

I agree on you about Monty. I wasn't aware that Monty and Lightning Joe, even knew each other. Collins was a good general, Monty would have made an excellent Platoon Commander.

 

O' Connor. Now there is a commander worth bragging about. If you look at the whole picture, The German army performed great feats not because it's commanders waited for numerical superiority. On the contrary, it can be said the Wehrmacht was used to fighting against the odds. O'Connor had those qualities.

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Tschuss

 

O'Connor was probably THE best General the Brits had during their war with Germany. I wonder what would have happened had they put him in charge of the forces that Monty had? Without a doubt, the war might not have been ended any faster but, would have been with fewer casualties. Shame the British leaders did not think as we do today.

 

Totally agree

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Tschuss

 

Montgomery as a platoon commander, love it.

Looks like we are going to agree to disagree about Bernard. Casualty figures for El Alamein, from memory around 14,500 Brit/Com, Axis around 30,000 by the best estimate I can find, no reliable figures from Axis records. Plus a lot of Axis prisoners.

Saw a filmed interview of O'Connor after the war, a very humble man, very down on himself for being captured. Blame Churchill el al for that, O'C wanted to push on but his best troops and his excellent staff were diverted to Greece.

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sand digger

 

Thanks! Yesterday, I talked to my neighbor who served in the 3rd Army with Patton. I asked him his opinion of Monty, and to say the least, his response was very colorful.

He ended saying that Monty might have been better used as a Squad Leader, in Pattons 3rd Army. In other words-he didn't like Monty either. Maybe its an American thing???

 

Yes, similar to Australian vets from the Pacific theater opinion of Dugout Doug.

Thought the forum may be interested in an opinion of Rommel from Frank Harrison's book, Tobruk - The Great Siege Reassessed. Harrison was a British veteran of North Africa.
"There is evidence of personal and psychological bravery, but evidence also of recklessness, impatience, and a stubborn nature. There is evidence of great drive and single-mindedness, but also of ruthless ambition and refusal to conform to anything other than his own will.
Tactical successes were matched by tactical failures. Victories were diluted by a draining away of men, machines and supplies in achieving them. Although he had his opponents reeling on many occasions, he was never able to strike the knock-out blow. In a final analysis of Rommel's performance during 1941 it has to be said that the year ended in the temporary destruction of what had been a supremely efficient fighting force through too much having been demanded of it by its commander". Harrison is however scathing in his criticism of the British 1941 commanders, particularly Cunningham and Ritchie.

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sand digger

 

Many Americans weren't fans of Mac either. My uncle served in the US Army's 80th I.D. I called him up Saturday and asked what he thought about Mac and I can't print it here. To say the least, Mac like Monty, are not well liked.

 

Why is everyone not liking Macarthur? He beat the japaneeses did he not? Also he did the inchon landing in the korean war, which was a sucess.

 

Inchon was an extremely lucky break. But like Anzio, you either get luck or you don't. In this instance he got lucky and got the credit but you must admit, it was a unusually risky venture for the American military. He did pull it of though. Very daring.

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Tschuss

 

I agree, Mac was lucky that the conditions were right, and that the North Koreans were not prepared.

Macs problems were that he thought ha was god, and thought that since he was god, that he would be allowed to do anything he pleased. Well Truman made Mac think differently, when he fired him in Korea.

The man with the huge ego, wanted to drop some A-Bombs on Chinas border as sort of a limited war. Thats insane and assinine to say the least. Personally, I am glad Mac was fired.

 

Why was Dugout Doug unpopular?

Firstly, he wasted many lives by insisting on taking every island and backwater irrespective of value, rather than bypassing the unimportant and allowing the occupants to run out of supplies and thereby cease to be a threat. The US Navy were in favour of such a 'wither on the vine' policy.

Secondly, his HQ was a long way from the action ( my home town in fact, his HQ building is still there) but he'd venture forth when a victory was near so he could accept the glory.

Finally, he was a big picture man to the extreme, no appreciation of the difficulties faced by the men on the ground and little tactical ability. Overwhelming force was all he understood.

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sand digger

 

Great post Richard, and I totally agree with you. Mac wasted too many lives for usless operations.

 

Could anyone tell me anything about an Italian cemetery around the El Alamain or Tobruk conflict area? I believe my uncle is burried there and was hoping someone might have information or pictures of that cemetery. BigV

 

Monty/Rommel,


Someone summed it up best,


Monty won battles he SHOULD have won, Rommel won battles he should have LOST!


OJ

 

bigv,


With Google Earth, you can see the El Alamein Italian cemetery a bit west of the town, not far from the coast.


OJ