Operation Barbarossa Day

Hallo, everybody,
too bad, i am not French,I am from Czech Republic. I am from city, where the famous Semtex was invented (anybody knows, what is the name of this city, I am curious if someone knows it???).

 

Oh, maybe as chief of the Red Army General Staff, Zhukov has not enough authority to command. At least he write this in his memories. But he had enough authority to sign "Directive of Peoples' Commissariat of Defence No. 1" (and more and more directives...), where he, in short, forbade to officers to do anything, without special orders.
And in "Directive of Peoples' Commissariat of Defence No. 3" he ordered to attack, not to defend and, if I only consider this two "High command" order, it was devastating enough.
About those tanks, I in generaly agree with you. But when I imagine, that the Russians strike first, there may be a little different situation.
There are German ammo and supply stores under fire and bombardment, as well as airfields. So giant collums of soviet tanks are barely disturbed by a few Stukas, which only managed to start...
I think, in this case the Russian logistic should be slightly better. Its hard a little to refuel or repair, when you are retreating without any connection, you are under fire as well as your stores (little quiz: Who ordered to place so many supplies directly on borders?).

 

Both is right. Semtin is a little village just on borders of Pardubice. And something better, I work in the Explosia factory, where this plastic stuff was and still is being made and directly in the research institute (which is a part of Explosia), where it was invented.
I should to do an explosive welding, and sometimes industrial explosives but, as you can to see, I had enough time to write some stuff to this (but not only to this, CZ forums are there too) forum.

 

Ok cool Jean, the name Jean made me think you might have French origins. It's great to have a Czech person here, I think you are actually the first one.

 

"Jean" was my nick on highschool (and on university too, before I left it and cancelled to study)
Its a little surprize, no other Czech here? I have seen here some nations, besides US, of course: Dutch, Finnish, France, German and I think there are some more yet.
Maybe are Czechs too lazy to comunicate in english.

 

Actually Zhukov in the beginnig of the war had very little to say or do unless it was approved by Stalin. Even at his high position, he had to get Stalin's approval first, and we all know how dictator's are.

Examples, Zhukov warned against the Kiev encirclement, was against the vyazma offensive's and was one of the Gerneral's which was against the Soviet military placing the majority of the Soviet forces south of the pripet marshes....Stalin did not heath these warnings all of which resulted in disasters just as Zhukov predicted

Ukraine and Kiev resulting in the largest disaster suffered by the Soviet Union in WW2... IMO

 

Well, Zhukov could to do many things, even with Stalins permission. But those examples, as you showed here are only from his memories again.
Maybe he warned before Kiev, maybe not, but true is, that he is responsible for that (lost) battle. After he lost the Minsk battle and Smolensk battle (and twice he lost the "West front" too), the possiblity for encirclemet of Kiev emerged, because his incapability opens the way for Germans to do this. (Btw., in those Minsk and Smolensk battles he had up to eight times advantage in numbers). Before this, Germans tried to attack Kiev from south and west direction, where they were not succesfull at all. (btw., the commander of 37th Army, which so succesfully defended Kiev had interesting name too, it was A. A. Vlasov.)
The majority of soviet forces south of Pripet marches is, as I know Zhukovs work too, as a part of plan to march to Romania.
He had one interestig manner, if he lost some battle, he immediatly forgot it, left to shoot up some "deliguents" and quickly searched, where is some winned battle, wher he could to steal credit as a winner. (Leningrad, Moskva, Stalingrad, Kursk, Berlin, are examples of those, as I can remember)
But in one thing, Zhukov was the best of all others. In only 104 days he commanded the 1st Army Group on Chalchin-Gol (Khalkhin-Ghol, I dont know it right in English) and he left to execute about 600 officers and soldiers. This army group had 57 000 soldiers. Can you imagin, how should the "Great Purges" to be, if Zhukov could do the work, which Jagoda, Jezhov and others did? If he could to play not only with 57 000, but 500 000+, and not only 3 months, but 2 years?? A really bloodbath there should be, I say.

 

Well, well, when did you join the Mythbusters crew?

 

I do not understand good?
I have only a little time, but I try to explain it more:
Leningrad I wrote here before, there was nothing to defend (in a time, where Zhukov was here, of course), as Germans did not make any plans to attack this city, only to neutralize it.
Moscow: well, why many other commanders aquired many decorations from Stalin for this battle and Zhukov did not? Maybe it happend little different way, because he wanted to retreat with his staff up to city Arzamas, which is about 400km east of Moscow. And maybe Stalin said "no way, I stay here and you stay here too..." and, after all, maybe Stalin could remember this well and did not awarded comrade Zhukov for "defend", which he surrended first and was forced to make at last...And try to search a little, i.e. how many tanks had left Germans in this time and generally what was their situation. Not good if I imagine only to stay, but to advance?
Stalingrad was, at first moment, only marginal battle, just piece of one gigantic operation, where much greater part was given to "Operation Mars". Zhukov commanded this (Mars), but very very bad. All is it there, some datas about Berlin are there too:

Code:

http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~insrisg/bookmarks/bk01/0705zhukov.htm

And after this he just appropriatted succes of others, anybody can to find who planned and commanded Stalingrad battle.
Berlin: some in the link just above, and: 1st Byelorussian Front was in good situation to assault Berlin, but who was in command of it? It was Rokossovsky, a man with bad luck: he had a Polish surname and Stalin did not want to "liberate" Berlin by some "Polish".. So Zhukov alternated Rokossovski, thus takes a job, allredy good prepared and he nearly ruined it. (if consider looses, especialy tanks, was Berlin great defend for Russians, dont you think?)
Kursk: I have to search some sources, but I bet I will find something about it.
EDIT No.1:
Also, very short note for the Kursk battle (from Wikipedia): commanders: top: Marshall Vasilevskyi, Front commanders: Vatutin, Rokossovskyi, Konyev.
Zhukov is mentioned here to, but only as he reputedly predicted German attack. But all of his other "predictions" turned to be a fictions, which he created to increase his own glory etc., so I dont think this one is exception. But I dont have any proof of it, but neither I had ever seen a proof against it. Only many talks from Zhukovs memories, and those ones are rather, ehm, not credible evidence, but they are very very often used, because of "his memories are the only true book about WW2", as wrote one of his Russian publishers/editors. (dont forgot two things, he did not write his memories, he had only to read and to confirm it, as it was written by a team of other writers and, a most interesting thing, there are about 13 printings of that memories, each other is even more "true" and "only true", than those ones before. 13 times the only true book, but each one is different, little weird at least, I think?)

 

Before the battle of Moscow, Stalin had the last word on everything. He over ruled not just Zhukov's advise but many other's as well. Explain to me how Zhukov is responsivle for Kiev if everything was done against he's wishes and only on the orders of Stalin?

Nothing to defend in Leningrad you say? Do you forget the fact that over 500,000 Germans were present there? Or the fact that the decision to starve Leningrad was made only after Leeb advance was halted after Pushkin by Zhukov and his counter attacks which stabilized the front?

As for Minsk and Smolenks, Zhukov warned Stalin of encirclment and Stalin refused to retreat and hand over the cities thus sealing the fate of the troops... This is also Zhukov's fault? As for their large numbers, they were only that. They lacked everything else including ammunition, armor and air support. In fact I remeber readint that Timoshenko stated that some units had not more the 15 tanks 8 of which were the BT-series.

As for the Pripet Marshes you are incorrect, Zhukov was against this STRONGLY as it was soleley Stalin who believed that the main force would come through Ukraine and the theory of attacking Romania is unsubstantiated there is absolutely no shread of evidence which would support this.

Just out of curiousity, if Zhukov was to blame for all of this, then what does Stalin deserve credit for?

I mean no disrespect, but you sound like a conspiracy theorist to me. Perhaps this is why there are so many "maybe's" in you previous posts?

I wouldnt buy into Suvorov's novels too much

 

I picked only this, because searching for everything should be too long.
500,000 Germans present by Leningrad you say? Wooow, thats a fantastic number, where you got this information?
Here are all German units, that were atacking Leningrad:
Infantry divisions No.: 291, 51, 269, 121, 86, 122
Motorized infantryNo.: 20, 36
Panzer divisions No.: 1, 6.
And the SS-Polizei division
German division had about 17,000 soldiers
If all of these divisons were on full numbers (though its not very likely to be truth, after all those fights), there were only max. 187,000 Germans there, not 500,000. (I think, that about 150,000, if not only 120,000 is more accurate)
Which day was that Zhukovs counter attack, you mentioned above?
My sources says, that Hitlers "Stop" order (stop to attack Leningrad, there were other battles i.e. on the east of the city, Tchivin etc., but not any other attempt to attack directly to Leningrad ) was given to Germans troops here in 12th September 1941. And the point is, that Zhukov was demonstrably in Moscow in 11th September, because in time between 17:10 and 21:15 he was in Stalins office. I cannot belive, that he should to get himself to Leningrad, to take command, to observe situation, to plan counter attack, and even to win it in only one day. In his "Memories and Thoughts" he was in Leningrad much earlier, even in 9th September, but it is not true, as many other informations there.

And no one of informations in this post is from Suvorov, ok?
Here are very interesting pages, i.e. there is a Stalins notepad here, where all his visitors are written out, with exact time of their visit.

Code:

http://tashv.nm.ru/

And here is the situation of Leningrad (see the map, other is in Czech):

Code:

http://www.palba.cz/viewtopic.php?t=1268

I verified these informations elsewhere too, so I think its true.

 

Hey what are a few hundred thousand troops more or less between friends, eh?

 

Well, by this way ok
But I tried to bring some serious information here.
You know, I believed for long time, that Zhukov was the best army-leader of all times. He was presented this way and still is. Some stuff like: the only commander, who never lost but a one battle, allways won everything, wow, thats something! He save Soviet Union (SU) many many times, he has been "as infallible as a Pope", he was genius, etc. etc. etc.
You cannot even imagine, what kind of information was avaiable here only a few years ago, behind the "Iron Curtain" (I was only 13, when it falls, but I remember this times very good).
And now? I started some serious searching only some months ago, and results? Realy some kind of the Mythbusters, as was mentioned above.
I realized, to my disillusion, something stinks here. Not only Zhukov lost some battles, even some major battles, but he had quite serious part in the greatest defeat ever (which will never be overcome, I hope). This defeat is, of course the time of first months of "the Great Patriotic War", because to lose about 17,000 tanks in such a short period is indeed somehow unusual.
I know, the greatest part of this played Stalin, but not as big, as a most of people believes. Interesting is, that especialy Zhukov was very busy with blemishing of Stalin, maybe he just tried to hide something about his own actions?
There are troubles with such a searching, because most of all data avaiable are coming out of his memories and those memories realy are not very trustworthy. I.e. on Wikipedia is, that Zhukov was in Leningrad in September 9th and this is realy not possible, as he was in Moscow at least to September 11th, if not 12th, and arrived to Leningrad 13th or 12th late.
Well, you can say again, what are 3 or 4 days between friends, but in this case even a single day matters, like in some police investigation.
Btw., 150,000 and 500,000 is rather a big difference, I think.

 

OK Jean,

who would have been a better pick to lead the troops than Zhukov? I trust you have a replacement?

 

Well, of course I have some favourite leaders, but it seems to me little off-topic this time and in this thread.
But if you really want to see here some names, here they are (WW2 only):
Germans: von Runstedt, von Manstein and Rommel.
Soviet: A.A. Vlasov, Rokossovskiy and Dmitry Grigorevich Pavlov, but about Pavlov I do not know much...
I wonder why you need this?

 

Simple. If you don´t have better alternatives then you really cannot say the general in charge was not up to his job,really.

 

Ok, if you think, but that (to compare or replace him with someone other) was not my idea in this thread.
I just want to show, that not all of his glorious victories are realy his, that he often claims credits of others and that his Memories etc are nearly worthless.
Btw., he often negated his own stories with another ones, even in those Memories.
If you want to compare him with someone, lets try it, good example is Stalingrad an Rzhev. In simillar operations his forces had allways much greater loses, sometimes even three or four times greater. By this way I should consider him as a ruthless mindless butcher, rather as a great strategist. (A strong words, I know, but I cannot express myself better in English, its first time from high school I am using it, except of reading, I even did not found, how to write an "apostroph" on Czech keyboard)
Can you only to imagine some US leader, and his units suffering 100,000 killed and more than 200,000 wounded in only one month and in only one particular operation and even without success?

 

150,00 you say? Try this
Siege of Leningrad - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Seems that you are missing a few?

where are the 8th and 12th Panzer Divisions or the 18th motorized division?
Where is the 18th army which consisted of XXVI, XXXVIII, L and XXVIII Army corps?

( Yes I am aware that on the 15th of Sept. Hitler made a decision to transfer the XXXXI, LVI and LVII Motorized and VIII Air Corps to AGC leaving Leeb only with the 19 panzer corps and later making concessions to the 8th Panzer div.)

A German directive issued on the 22nd of Septermber read:

The Fuhrer has decided to erase the city of St. Petersburg from the face of the earth. I have no interest in the further of existence of this large city after the defeat of the Soviet Russia... We propose to blockade the city tightly and erase it from earth by means of artillery fire and continuous bombardment from the air.

This message came only after desperate Soviet counter attacks at Sol'tsy, Staraia Russa, Krasnoe Selo and Siniavino. While these counter attacks achieved little, they did manage to inflict Irreplaceable casualties and eventually managed to slow the Germans to a halt at Leningrads doorsteps.

As for Zhukov. On Zhukovs recomendation, the Stavka ordered Kulik's 54th Army, still opperating under its direct control, and Zhukov's Neva Operational Group (NOG) to launch converging attacks toward Siniaviano. While progress was small and an advance of only 10km in 16 days, Schmidts XXXIX motorized corps forced a retreat. Forcing Zhukov to replace Kulik with Khozin. These were the thorns at the Germans side which eroded their forces little by little, forcing them to stop in front of Leningrad. Zhukov's main goal was to defend the city, NOT destroy the army.

On Sept 11th 41' Zhukov was assigned the task of defending Leningrad and to take over Marshal Veroshilov who was not up to the task. It was only on the evening of October 6th that Stalin called Zhukov IN Leningrad and oredered him to fly back for the defense of Moscow at once.

 

This statement is very misleading. Zhukov was NOT in charge of these tanks nor did he or any other Russian leader other then Stalin had ANY say in military opperations at this time unless and only unless Stalin approved. These 17,000 tanks ( the BT-7 and the T-26 ) for the most part were nothing more then pee shooters compared to the German Panzers.

Not as big? This once again sounds like nothing more then an opinion, backed by no facts. Could you elaborate please?

This is a big difference indeed

Also could you explain as to why you would have a traitor such as Vlasov, be number 1 in command of the Red Army?