Oradour-Sur-Glane

I recall the news about that too Andy. I think the incident you are referring to occurred in Saint-Julien-de-Cremps in September 1944 when 17 German prisoners were executed by French partisans in retaliation for German forces having killed 17 French prisoners following a fight between German forces and French partisans.

[ 11. December 2003, 06:43 AM: Message edited by: Crapgame ]

 

This was the same story as I read im my newspaper.

The article there had more a "human touch" about Moinseur Guet, the lonely old resistance fighter, who stubbornly stuck to his word given to the german enemies at capture. He did not forget, even against the opposition of all the other people living in the village, who tried to silence the incident because tehy are just "mort boches"

Thanks for the link (even I think the comments to that article are rather stupid and inappropiate, but who cares)!

Cheers,

 

Thank you very much for the article, Crapgame! Good stuff!

Though the guys that responded the article are the most imbecile guys I've seen in the net... Can't be possible that they dare to post such things about WWII if they know a sh*t about it!

 

You're obviously not surfing enough in the web...let me tell you: the comments are exactely expressing the real level of widespread pathological francophobia in the U.S.

These comments are _not_ the extreme view of a few lunatics, they are - to my observation - representing the mainstream attitude towards France in the U.S.A.


Within one year I read and heard many xenophobic comments, made by otherwise normal, intelligent, friendly U.S. people and journalists: "Don't buy French", "The eternal French", "The dirty French", the French being generally "vile" or "cheese eating surrender monkeys" or "frog eating French" while "frainch war memorials" are only good to "take a ........ on" (the last two remarks are from this board, btw) etc. pp.

Personally, I can't avoid to get the impression if quite some 'merkins just need a new hate focus to gather themselfs around after hating Indians, Niggas and Commies is out of fashion and hating Mexicans is just a sport in the South.

some jokes, but don't forget: "Was schert es den Baum wenn sich das Wildschwein sein Fell daran wetzt?"

http://www.francestinks.com/Fjokes.htm

Cheers,

[ 11. December 2003, 04:21 PM: Message edited by: AndyW ]

 

Well, that site just confirm my statement... whether it is or not what many Americans think doesn't deny the fact that such statements are IDIOTIC.

First, I don't know where that moron came with the fugres that 10.000 people died because of heath last summer... But as he says, "France looked for it". I don't know either if he forgot that Spain, Portugal, Italy, Austria and Britain also suffered a lot from it... And yes, it must be France's fault that much heath since they produce 37% of global warming gases and haven't reduced them in accordance to Tokyo's protocol... Oh! I'm sorry! That's not France...

And yes, I think he has the right to claim how foolish French politicians are and about France's deficit! Because we know that the US administration doesn't have any deficit and that is not declaring war on Chinese products even if it needs 1,5 billion dollars a dayfrom China and Japan to pay its debts...

Don't you all loved that site?

[ 11. December 2003, 05:06 PM: Message edited by: General der Infanterie Friedrich H ]

 

You're welcome Andy and Friedrich.

[ 14. December 2003, 09:09 PM: Message edited by: Crapgame ]

 

I just dug up a 1983 newspaper article on a trial of a man involved in this massacre.

Brings to light some facts I'd not known before, like how premeditated this killing was, not the botched execution theory that some entertain. I'll be posting more clippings of this mans trial as the days progress.

I posted it here in the SS newspaper section:

http://www.ww2forums.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=000346;p=1#000012

[ 23. January 2004, 05:19 AM: Message edited by: BratwurstDimSum ]

 

There is a happy note to this discussion, We slaughtered the 2nd SS at Falaise, I had the priviledge of witnessing the results of that slaughter.

Some here have advanced the excuse that some Germans were killed by the French.....One could enquire, WHY? Of course they were killed!! They had invaded, and were the occupying power, If they wished not to be killed by the French? then the answer is quite easy.....get out of others countries!

They were unspeakably evil. But if you dont think so? Then go to Orador, then after, on to somewhere very quiet, Then concentrate, and listen very intently.... perhaps, with luck, you may be able to hear the faint echo of the screams of innocent women, and little children, as the flames devoured them.

The sound of little children running to their mothers for help, as their little bodies literaly melted front of their mothers eyes. I remember the evil of the SS. Oh! and if you do manage to catch that faintest echo of the sound of unbearable agony of those little children being roasted alive, it will surely live with you.

Out there somewhere, there is still that faint echo. I said before, "God forbid" that I am made to listen to that sound....perhaps? if there is a God, he will make those that killed these innocents, listen to those sounds for all eternity.
Sapper

 

Watching the news nowadays, I'm wondering if I'd substitute just the word "French" with some other people, would that sentence still be right, too?


BTW, maybe - just maybe - "the" French should had considered the possibility of getting invaded when they declared war on Germany in 9/1939. France declared war, France fought, France lost , surrendered and was occupied. No such things like serious "resistance"/"terror" until June 1941, when a couple French Commies started their attacks on the German occupation forces who answered with reprisal shootings, leading to an escalating cascade of terror and brutalies.

Cheers,

[ 10. February 2004, 03:01 AM: Message edited by: AndyW ]

 

Well, indeed the discussion, sorry, goes into the wrong direction, but I cannot leave unsaid what I saw on TV.

A couple of days ago a father of a British soldier who died in Iraq war was protesting and evidently got the attention of TV cameras.

After the news on Iraqi secret weapons not being found quite a lot of peole are quite irritated, and this father definitely had a thing to say:

He said his son died for the US oil pipe in Iraq, not saving the world from terrorists or Saddam.

I guess Bush and Blair still has got alot of questions to answer before they get out of the Iraqi dilemma.

 

I won't hi-jack this thread by referring to Iraq or anything else not between 1939-1945...

I'll just say that I completely agree with Andy's post. All what happened was Hitler's fault. But the way it happened was the Allies'.

France was occupied because of believing in Woodrow Wilson's naïve promises in 1919. With the Rhine as the Franco-German frontier, I wonder how WWII could have been?

 

There were different war stories as well:

Arnhem:

"The British praised the Germans for tending to the wounded British paras while the SS were very impressed by the courage and skill of the elite paras, comparing them to the best troops they had. "

http://www.eliteforces.freewire.co.uk/Waffen%20SS%20Text+Images/The%20Battle%20of%20Arnhem.htm

 

let's get Iraq out of this if we may ? OT, no thanks. Really wonder if we will ever know what really happened here as no-one on this forum was in these vilalges during the time of the chaotic sadness. Some pretty young kids taking it out on the French populace. Immaturity and high ego's. Seems somewhere in my lost data of the 1960's on Das Reichs route I had inserted two pages of confrontations in the towns and route of the division and young Alsace SS men had done 3/4's of the shootings and hangings in the villages. Will have to re-check that but thought I would throw that out. Das Reich especially and Hohenstaffen Divisons seemed to have faired getting out of the Cauldron of the Falaise hole and it was Das Reich Panthers that blew Polish Shermans off the hills to allow German truppen if we want to call them that........and inkling to escape through to the Seine. On the other hand, 1st, 12th, 10th and 17th SS Pz Grenadier were basically a walking shell. We will of course discuss the sheer hell of these poor French and their homes till we leave this planet........

{E} ♦

 

Re Oradour-Sur-Glane, which I believe is inexcusable cold blooded murder by scum, one very sad point is that it is not an isolated incident.

The Guardian
Sophie Arie in Rome
Wednesday January 14, 2004

”ITALY TO TRY THREE FORMER NAZIS
A cupboard found in Rome containing 600 witness statements will provide key evidence as ex-SS are tried for the massacre of 560 in Tuscany.

The surprise discovery of what has become known as the "cupboard of shame" has led an Italian court to put three German ex-SS officers on trial for their part in the massacre of 560 Italians in a Tuscan village in August 1944.

For decades the killings which took place as the Germans retreated from advancing allied forces were not investigated. But in 1994 a journalist stumbled across a cupboard in the basement of the headquarters of the military prosecutor's office in Rome.

It was sealed and turned towards the wall. There were more than 600 files inside, including reports and witness statements collected by British and American troops as they advanced through Italy in 1944, discovering piles of dead people in scores of villages.

Bureaucracy and the lengthy process of investigating crimes committed two generations earlier have meant it has taken almost a decade for the first cases to come to court. "They just buried the evidence like ostriches putting their heads in the sand," said a source close to the trial.

"The files were hidden during the cold war. You can imagine why. Germany was an ally of Nato. It was decided to keep these things secret."

The three suspects are all living in Germany and it is not yet clear if they can be extradited for the trial. Reports said yesterday that continuing investigations in Germany might mean the men cannot be extradited.
Investigators said that Gerhard Sommer, 83, Alfred Schonenberg, 83, and Ludwig Sonntag, 80, all face charges of massacring the civilians at Sant'Anna di Stazzema on August 12 1944 at the trial to take place in La Spezia, northern Italy, on 20 April 2004.”

No.9