P-38, 2nd best US plane?

I'll ask.

 

I'm curious because some more resarch needs to be followed up on. When did they first encounter the D-9 would be good a question..........

 

Just sent a message. Will be back on computer tommorrow. Hopefully I'll have a response. P.S. have you heard anything about the new D-9 built from scratch? when will it fly etc?

 

a D-9 running, yes at Champlain air museum, it has been on the tarmac a number of times and I have seen, photographed it and gotten on the wing ............ Eeeeeeeeeeeeks. Not sure if this is the one they are trying to restore to full operating condition though, maybe

E ~

 

In the ETO/MTO if you use the measure of 'kill to loss' ratio as a guide, the P-38 actually comes out as the worst of the 4 fighters used by the 8th Airforce .

The P-51 comes out top destroying 4,950 enemy aircraft in the air for 2,520 losses.
Next is the Spitfire, followed by the P-47.
The P-38 comes in last shooting down 1,771 enemy.
aircraft for a loss of 1,758.

In fact the performance of the P-38 was so poor in the ETO/MTO that all four 8th AF Fighter Groups that had flown the P-38 during early 1944 (the 20th, 55th, 364th, and 479th FGs) had transitioned to the P-51 by October 1944. There were no P-38 FGs in the 8th AF after that date, and the only FG in the 9th AF using the P-38 by V-E day was the 474th FG.

[ 31. August 2004, 05:43 PM: Message edited by: redcoat ]

 

Well that was some "hard" data. How did the p-40 fare? & what are the #'s on the 3rd ranked plane? after the 51 & 47?

I realize a stat comparison is impossible between the Hellcat & 47, but performance stats & maneuverability comparisons should not be too tough.

 

Erich, here is the reply.


Steve, I'm fairly sure Stan, the 55th FG was flying P-51s in '45. Also, Stan did not shoot down any Doras. He shot down two 109s, of which he's not particularly proud, as he said, the "pilots," actually kids learning to be pilots were on a landing approach when Stan encountered them. He said he slightly overflew the first one, but backed off, and the kid stayed the course and their eyes met, and Stan said "hell, he looked like he was 14!" Regardless, Stan shot him down. He got a second one in the same manor - i.e. another "kid" coming in to land with wheels down. Stan mentions the Dora out of respect for the aircraft, that being, he thought it fo a first class fighter. When he says we managed to prang a few of them, he means others in the 55th FG, not him.
Tom

 

now this is making much more sense, yes the 55th had P-51's not sure where the P-38 's were coming into this picture as I don;t think any P-38 ever ran into a Dora unless some 15th AF 1st or 82nd 38 came well to the north for engagements..........

E ~

 

Chrome do you have access to the 55th fg history ?

I do know that the 55th fg was a hot shot ground attack killing outfit, 316 aerial kills, 268 on the ground.............

E ~

 

The 55th flew from Nuthampstead until April '44 and then from Wormingford in Essex. In early 1945 the 55th was commanded by the legendary 'Eager El', Elwyn G Righetti, the 8th's top-scoring strafing ace with 27 ground aircraft victories.

And here's a Robert Taylor image of El and his wingman ; -

 

sharp painting Martin ! top scorer in the fg was William Lewis with 8 aerial victories. a noted camo feature in the fg was a sometime added painting of an upright Stallion-Mustang on the tail-rudder, in the CY* ?, 343rd squadron.

Luftwaffe ace Ossi Romm spoke of one such instance in later 44 against Mustangs with the "horse rudder signature"

E ~

 

getting back to the P-38. the 82nd fighter group flying the 38 through it's career scored 548 aerial victories. Pretty impressive I would say for a group known for many ground attack missions. In October of 44 alone the unit blew away some 49 loco's.

E

 

And don't forget the P-38's that shot down Yamamoto's Betty bomber. The design of the P-38 makes it look like it would be no match for enemy fighters. It did face some issues in the beginning, and certainly when it was to be issued to England (I might be wrong, but I think one of its major problems was on takeoff because pilots needed a certain angle of attack for takeoff), but those problems were ovecome and it became what i think is one of the best fighters in the war. One of the main resons (besides its inherent advantages because it was a twin engine fighter) was the P-38's fire power. It had several machine guns and i thnk maybe a 20 mm cannon (im probably wrong, but it was some sort of cannon using an explosive shell). Because of its huge amount of forward firing guns, the P-38 was able to take down the opposing fighters. This was true in the PTO, where it was primarily used with great success.

 

It would appear that in the hands of a real good pilot, it was a real monster. Particularly the J model. It's twin boom design would give it poor side view, & I have to wonder about it's roll characteristics. Armament was very good. 4 50 cal machine guns, & one 20 mil cannon. & being centrally armed made aiming easier than mid wing armed fighters. Bong had great success with it.

Erich regarding access to 55th. Um, only through Stan.Who is a friend of a friend.

 

Chrome not wanting to pry into this 55th fg vets affairs but he may have the 55th fg history and I would love to have the inforamtion on downing of Doras by the unit in 1945 if available. The book is through Phylanx publications if I have spelled that correctly and costs around 40.00. A worthy book for the shelves in case you are interested and wanting Stan's friend to sign a copy for u

I was looking again through the P-38 82nd fg history and their is a small pic in 1945 showing the front of a 38 with the enormous two underwing fuel tanks. How those suckas got off the ground and performed long range missions is beyond me...........thanks again to Stevin O. for this marvelous fg history book

Erich

 

here is the 55th fg book for ya !

THE 55TH FIGHTER GROUP VS THE LUFTWAFFE
By John M. Gray.
This is the definitive history of the famous 8th Air Force’s 55th Fighter Group of WWII. Starting with the P-38 and eventually converting to the P-51, this group not only achieved distinguished status as escort bombers and low level tactical operations, they were also champion 8th Air Force locomotive busters and won two unit citations.

8-1/2 X 11
176 pgs.
Over 200 rare b&w photos
Hdbd
ISBN: 1580070043

 

USAAF statistics for the P-40 in the ETO/MTO are as follows:
Sorties: 67,059
Enemy aircraft shot down: 481
Enemy aircraft destroyed on ground: 40
Lost in combat: 553
Tons of bombs dropped: 11,014

The P-40 was also extensively used in the same theater by the RAF and Commonwealth air forces (as the Tomahawk and Kittyhawk), but RAF/Commonwealth use is not included in these figures.

Source: The Army Air Forces in World War Two, edited by J.L. Cate and W.F. Craven; table reprinted in American Combat Planes, Third Edition by Ray Wagner

Sorry, but I don't have enough available data for that.
However I do have this quote from the well known internet poster 'robert' on the comparisons with other aircraft in the European theater.

"The P-38 was quite a bit slower than other contemporary US, British, or German fighters. The fastest fighter version of the Lightning was the P-38L, which could do 414 mph. This was at least 20-30 mph slower than the P-51B/D, P-47D, Spitfire Mk. XIV, Tempest Mk. V, Bf 109K, or Fw 190D. Even with the wing flap introduced on the P-38J-25, it couldn't turn with other fighters throughout a full turn. The flap helped in the initial turn, but then the laws of physics took over. The wing loading (weight vs. wing area) of the P-38L was 63.1 (lbs per square foot). The Spitfire Mk. XIV was 35.0. There's no way the P-38 could have stayed with a Spit or Zero through the turn. The combination of being both slower and less agile than almost any other front line fighter of the time is hardly a point in the P-38's favor. To its credit, its ceiling was excellent, at 44,000 ft., a mark bettered only by the Spitfire.

Its twin-engined configuration was perhaps its worst feature. If one engine was put out, it was a sitting duck for enemy fighters; one quote I have seen recounted how a pilot had seen only one P-38 return from the combat area on one engine during the course of his combat tour. (See "American Fighters of World War Two Volume One" by Rene Francillon, page 48)."

Thanks to 'robert' for the info

[ 02. September 2004, 09:44 AM: Message edited by: redcoat ]

 

Yes, by late 44, the 38 would be running behind the pack in speed. In med 43, it would have been more competitive in speed. It did have great power loading with 2 motors meant it could be pushed through the turn well. It could not turn with a Zero or Spit. But according to Stan it could with 109's.

In Eric Brown's book, Duels in the sky, Brown mentioned that a Hellcat would be a good fight for a D-9, but that he had no doubt whatsoever that a Corsair could not beat a 190 in combat. So that is another reason I would go with Hellcat as 2nd best.

Erich, I would be happy to see if I can hook you up with Stan. The inline engine 190 experiments began in 41 with DB motors. Someday I'll hopefully get a grip on all the different Jumo motor designations,A-1, E, EB, F, F-1, & I think there was C jumo as well. kinda confusing.


& remember, before having sex with a model,
make sure the glue is dry 1st. words of wisdom.

 

Chrome would love to chat with a P-38 vet. Hve only chattd with a 1st fg vet and he is a great guy.

by the way it is worthy of note that the 82n fg was really tasked with ground attack wrok in late 44 till wr's end as noted..........

6 Nov. 44, 1 Bf 109 damaged
12 Nov. 44 1 Me 262 damaged, rather doubtful
15 December 44 2 Me 262's damaged, rather doubtful
8 February 45 1 Me 262 damaged
21 March 45 1 Fw 190 destroyed
22 march 45 1 Bf 109 and 1 Fw 190 destroyed
8 April 45 1` Bf 109 damaged

I am rather doubtful about the Nov. anad Dec. 44 claims of Me 262 damged as the 82nd would haev had to fly almost to the German Dutch border to taek on Me 262's of kommando Nowotny and I really do not think this feasible from south in Italy

well my two cents

 

Stan seems to be a nice guy, so I'll let you know soon as I hear back. Meanwhile, check out this 190 site, http://FW190.hobbyvista.com/indexhtml it has some 55th data - stories. Tried to paste it, but couldn't get it through. Steve.