Panther/FW-190

Well, only Hitler in late 1944 could think of first beating the allied in the west through "Wacht am Rhein" and then sending the troops to east and beat the Russians and win the war thus by spring 1945...

Anyway, I could not think of anything worse than not letting Stalin get to Berlin first, right?

Oops...

 

The problem with doing a Wach am Rhine in the East is that the vastness of that front would have just swallowed up the counter attack without it having any real potential for a shift in the strategic course of events. At least in the West there was the long odds that it might have a real strategic effect.

 

I suppose the appropriate What-If would be what if the July 20th plot had succeeded and the Generals had decided to call it quits and had the luck of catching Uncle Joe on a good day to negotiate a decent surrender?

Otherwise the situation is totally unredeemable. Hopeless.

 

Gah... are we still talking about tanks?

I think Tony has an interesting point-

Suggesting the limits of what could actually be done with the PzIV chassis. And as much as I think TA brought up some solid points- I do wonder if the PzIV *could* be upgraded to a level anywhere near that of the Panther.

And while I do certainly agree that- especially early in the war- german tactics and skill were likely more of a factor than any specific equipment, I would have to think that equipment DID play a part. If one of the weaknesses for the russians was the large number of T60 and T70 tanks, would this not also hold true for the germans?

And although I'm just starting to read about it, I'll use Hill 112 as a basic example, as in- would the germans have been able to hold that hill for anywhere near as long if they DIDN'T have any Tigers?

The more I think about it... maybe not specifically Panthers, but having more heavy armor earlier...
?Would the germans have been able to better stop the Russian counterattack outside moscow in winter 41-42 with more heavy armor?
?What about Kursk- if heavy armor had been intriduced earlier, meaning smaller numbers of obsolete PzIIIs and short-barreled IVs- would there have been any change in the short-term outcome at Kursk?

(As far as launching Wacht an Reim in the east- considering that a main strategic goal of that operation was to "split" the western allies, would this even apply? Wouldn't it just be equivalent to sending even more forces into the east into already-existing plans/operations?)

 

Just my thoughts on your questions CrazyD

1. The Germans were quite out of tanks by the time the Red Army counterattacked Dec 1941 so any tank would have been needed. Actually I think the Germans were quite out of everything.

2. Kursk was a huge trap. The Russians had more AT guns than Germans had tanks to begin with. However with more heavy tanks ( and if the Panthers had worked...) it might have been possible to make the Kursk pocket closed but in the end the losses would have been bigger. For the Red Army Zitadelle was just the first phase of the battle. Once it was over and the Germans had their best troops exhausted the Russians launched a huge attack from both sides of Kursk with fresh troops and tank divisions.

3. In the east just holding the Red Army forces out of Berlin is the object. Letting Monty and Patton in and suddenly the Red Army did not get the huge victory but a hollow one instead. No Berlin for breakfast for you guys...that should cause some friction. Hitler would be dead meat anyway but would the battle continue between east and west?

Also it seems that Hitler sent most of the tanks etc to west in autumn 1944 for the Bulge operation ( figures in the interesting facts for ostfront section a while back ) and not east. I guess Himmler as the Vistula Army Group commander did his job well as he expected NO ATTACK from the Red Army to Berlin....Back to the chicken farming Heinrich!

 

BTW, if you wondered how lost Hitler was:

" The Russians did not have 1,600 tanks, they ONLY had 1,400 tanks!"

Hitler commenting in March 1945 General Raus´s report on battles on the Eastern Front

 

haha

 

I suppose that to Hitler's deluded way of thinking you can understand why he sent the 'best' to the Bulge....he really did believe that a decisive blow could be struck against the Allies, possibly bringing a halt to their advance in the West. Even Hitler by this stage couldn't have thought that anything of the kind could be achieved in the East...?

And, on another topic, I've always thought that the success of the Tigers in Normandy lay more with their use as 'mobile pillboxes' ( at which they were very effective ). When Tigers were used offensively late in the war ( ie the Bulge ) they were left 'way behind.

 

Tho somehow, I think Himmler was a ways beyond the ole chicken farm by this point!

On Kursk, yeah, I kinda had that in the back of my head, that no matter what the germans did, the russians really had them there. I guess more heavy tanks/ more functional panthers would have only maybe prolonged the battle a bit.

But the Russia point I think is an interesting one. Some sort of significant number of heavy tanks- wether they were Panthers or Tigers, or some other heavy tank- could maybe have made something of a difference. The advance on Moscow in winter 41 probably would not have been effected much- in large part because of the fuel issues TA mentioned earlier, and becuase of the "fire brigade" nature in which the germans likely would have used the heavy tanks. But- in defending against the russian counterattack outside moscow that winter, a couple battalions of heavy tanks could have actually made a difference. Especially considering that the russians- again as TA noted- did not have tons of T34s, but more of a mixed force. And the idea of Tigers or Panthers against T60s and T70s is... laughable.

You'd think so... but... I think I saw a thread somewhere in here about the movie Downfall- and I'd say that did an admirable job of showing just how far gone Hitler was in 45, and I'd imagine in late 44, he wasn't too much better.
I wouldn't put any delusions past him!

And agreed on the usage of Tigers- especially King Tigers, those things really were semi-mobile pillboxes.
But I would say that, at least from what I've read, that Tiger Is were a decent bit more mobile and maneuverable that oen might think. I'd say the main aspect would be time and place- in the wide open spaces of Russia in say, 43, the Tigers could use all their strengths, including *decent* autootive characteristics.
But in the hilly hedgerows and narrow roads and bridges of Western Europe in 1944- when allied planes roamed the skies at will-
Semi-mobile pillboxes would be the *best* the Tiger battalions could hope for!

 

I think you're right about Hitler's 1944 state-of-mind, but he really believed that the Americans were morally degenerate and would fold up when assaulted by his supermen.....

 

the Königstiger was about impervious to Allied air attacks as shown especially on the Ost front during 1945. Sit and wait and let the hunter be the hunter. SS Schwere Pz Abt 503 did this and although losing everything finally in Berlin knocked out over 400 Soviet Panzers plus a host of Soviet MT. the units forming little sectins of 3 tanks in Pommern and the area East of Berlin till trying to gather it's meagre self in Berlin were in constant contact with Soviet craft such as Il-2's and twin engine bombers. _________________________________

the Alt Austrian was so daft he about fired the Sturmgruppen after having a brief staff metting and hearing they had lost about as many SturmFw's as bombers they shot down on November 2, 1944. Merseberg was a slaughter house for both sides as our vet here, b17sam can testify

 

Any tank is impervious to air attack (discounting L-4s with bazookas ) as they are very small targets therefore very difficult to hit. I can't find the source now, but Dr. John D. Salt used to say that the impact percentage with Typhoon rockets was 4% on the firing range.

If you start hitting their logistical chain that's another matter. Then the KTs (and pretty much else) will be left to 3-tank platoons acting as pillboxes because they won't have much fuel to allow them to do anything much else. The best anti-tank weapon the U.S.Army had was a B-26 over a marshalling yard! (well, not one but a lot of them ).

Of course an entire battalion of tanks with the dreadful 8.8cm L/71 can cover an enormous amount of ground, but I remember reading on other threads that one must be wary of over optimistic figures especially by the end of the war. How long is this claims period? Who is claiming them? What confirmation method was applied?

Was this confirmed by occupying the battlefield and counting wrecks? I was under the impression that the Germans were not exactly in the position to do that by this time of the war...

[ 21. January 2006, 07:53 AM: Message edited by: Za Rodinu ]

 

I found this quote by chance:

In a week of fighting 5th PzDiv claimed* to have destroyed 295 Soviet armoured vehicles of which 128 were credited to the Tiger tanks of sPzAbt 505. By 5th July the 5th PzDiv had been reduced from 125 tanks to 18, and all of the Tigers had been lost. (in "Operation Bagration", Steve Zaloga)

* interesting word

By this I wish to mean that a coin has two faces: not much profit in killing a lot of Rushcki-Popoffs if you get anihilated in the process.

 

you must realize the most important thing that was behind every single German fighting man during 1945.

do not let the Soviets enter Germany, and even if it happens you will fight to the death in protecting your familie.

that my friend sums it up perfectly. It was because of the fighting spirit of the truppen that caused ssuch horrendous grief amongst the Soviets as they enetred westeward even with the Wehrmacht beind destroyed in the process. to answer your earlier inquiry the stas on the W-SS Schwer Pz Abt. comes from documented log books from the hsitorian and the families of the suriving and now deceased crewmen besides the Lufw. Feld and Fallshirm turppen that served alongside the Heavy singled out Königstigers. remember this in the case of the W-SS 503rd. They were never on the attack but provided last ditch effort to plug huge gaps in the existing line until retreat took them back into Berlin with surviviors popping out of the Halbe pocket and going through the western suburbs of Berlin into US and British captivity. The Schwere Abt. W-SS 502 also served in the Halbe Pocket with the SS Hetzer Abt 561 which scored a huge amount of Soviet tank kills and retreated through Berlin to the west.

 

All right, Erich, one of the things to be taken for granted was Soviet incompetence at low tactical levels, resulting in disproportionate loss figures.

 

I've always tended towards a decent amount of skepticism regarding numbers, regardless of the source. The commotion of a battle, difficulties in communication, simple environmental aspects such as range, smoke, weather, and difficulty in confirming anything...

I still hearken back to my favorite example- if a number of "reliable" sources cannot even figure out and agree on exactly how many Tiger I tanks were produced by germany during the war, how can anyone ever be sure of any exact numbers- especially exact numbers taken from battlefield situations?

VERY well said!

 

yes and Soviet T-34's ran all over the Kursk sphere destroying W-SS Tigers at will ........ propaganda taken to the extreme.

~ In the case of the Wehrmacht it would send out confirmation units for the armor battalions once the field was in their possession. In Normandie it was eye spotted obviously but also done by foot, landser hugging the ground and doing inspections during the day and even by night as they did not have the proper air surveliance obviously not in their favour at this time in 44.

 

Heck, not even I go that far! The histories from the 70s and 80s I read do show a "coloured" interpretation. The book by Martin Caidin on Kursk (The Tigers Are Burning ) swallowed this party line bait, hook, line and rod including the charging T-34s and all! Exactly how not to write a book, but in the 60s there weren't the sources that exist now.

Perhaps by this time it would be more proper to say "they would send confirmation units if the field was in their possession..."

 

That's easy, the side in possession after the battle just goes out and counts the wrecks.

 

I'm afraid Martin Caidin is noted for rather sloppy research and sensational assertions, certainly in his aviation titles.