Patton or Rommel

Very Nice. Very Very Nice. :gatlinggun: Besides it is obvious that Americans are the best at everything, that is why we win all of the gold medals in all of the Olympics. Um wait a minute here....

 

I think it's very hard to say.. We'll never know what they both would have done or what they would do..

You can't say about those things who would win or had win. You'll never know the outcome.

They were both die-hard officers and knew what to do. They were almost identical to eachother.

I really can't say who would win. They never faced eachother so we'll never know who would win.

Don't say that he would win or he really would win because this or that. You'll never know, you can't know how they would react, what they would do, what their strategy would be to defend/attack.

I just say that Rommel and Patton were both great generals.

 

I say Rommel

the unfortunate thing is that they never really faced off in an all out battle.

 

Is it possible to give someone a negative reputation?

 

The guy says he is obsessed with WW2, but by the looks of his posts he knows very little about it.

-


Now I will spark an argument with some of the lesser informed people here by giving my chice-Monty.

 

Massively tired of the interminable 'Patton or Rommel, (and Monty) who's the coolest' theme I find myself wondering just why they stand out so much in the popular imagination.

Is it Purely down to Patton's Self-publicising & Normandy lunge?
Rommel being portrayed in the contemporary British press as the main enemy for a long while?
Films?
Or is it purely because old blood n' guts was often so 'unusual' in behaviour?
Or perceptions of Rommel as somehow a 'good' German General dating even from wartime?
Maybe each's personal presentation being somehow the archetype of what we expect 'A General' to be? (Though that may be a chicken/egg scenario, them helping to establish that stereotype of 20th century 'military display' in the first place with their Ivory-handled sidearms, leather coats, and multiple cap-badges.)

We possibly shouldn't judge them as strongly as many do, we weren't there & will always be a million miles away from understanding the plethora of factors that may have forced them to act as they did in given situations, but perhaps we can understand just why they seem so significant to so many at the expense of most all other senior commanders?

Cheers,
Adam.

 

Well said Adam!

 

Who looks bettter in the screen? James Mason as Rommel or George Scott as Patton?

 

I suspect someone's going to have a full-blown forest fire before long...

 

Difficult to say. Historicaly, Rommel is dangerous because he takes big risks that pay off but at the cost of not being able to follow through due to not having enough resources available so he cannot complete the victory. Patton is dangerous in that he pushes and forces his units forward. He has not ever conducted a withdrawal so if Rommel's 88's gave him a licking, would he continue to push as I expect him to or will he withdraw? Personally I would expect him to keep attacking and finding other spots to attack. But this would cost him in casualties of which he never was concerned about.

 

Well said Adam , totally agree, but i do have one question for Patton supporters, did he have any actual front line combat experience as a junor officer or soldier in WW1 or any other conflict ?

 

I think they're difficult to compare because while Rommel was always short on resources (tanks, fuel, men, airpower etc.) Patton (correct me if I'm wrong) never fought a battle where he didn't have a numerical superiority in men and materiel plus significant air and artillery support.

 

Im not a Patton Lover but here goes LOL.

"Patton's first real exposure to battle occurred when he served as a member of legendary General John J. Pershing's staff during the expedition to Mexico. In 1915, Patton was sent to Fort Bliss along the Mexican border where he led routine cavalry patrols. A year later, he accompanied Pershing as an aide on his expedition against Francisco "Pancho" Villa into Mexico. Patton gained recognition from the press for his attacks on several of Villa's men.

Impressed by Patton's determination, Pershing promoted him to Captain and asked him to command his Headquarters Troop upon their return from Mexico. With the onset of World War I in 1914, tanks were not being widely used. In 1917, however, Patton became the first member of the newly established United States Tank Corps, where he served until the Corps were abolished in 1920. He took full command of the Corps, directing ideas, procedures and even the design of their uniforms. Along with the British tankers, he and his men achieved victory at Cambrai, France, during the world's first major tank battle in 1917.

Using his first-hand knowledge of tanks, Patton organized the American tank school in Bourg, France and trained the first 500 American tankers. He had 345 tanks by the time he took the brigade into the Meuse-Argonne Operation in September 1918. When they entered into battle, Patton had worked out a plan where he could be in the front lines maintaining communications with his rear command post by means of pigeons and a group of runners. Patton continually exposed himself to gunfire and was shot once in the leg while he was directing the tanks. His actions during that battle earned him the Distinguished Service Cross for Heroism, one of the many medals he would collect during his lifetime."
Biography of General George S. Patton, Jr.

And this in Mexico too,

"Pershing directed Patton to take three Dodge Touring cars to nearby haciendas in order to purchase the needed supplies of corn.
With Patton went one corporal, six privates, and a civilian named Lunt. Mr. Lunt was the interpreter for the group.
The first and second stops made were at Las Coyotes and Rubio. Neither place had adequate supplies of corn, so the party continued to Las Cienegas. Patton, knowing that Cardenas was headquartered there, surrounded the village just in case the Mexican might be there. Unfortunately, only corn was found at Las Cienegas.
The trip to Las Cienegas was not a total loss, however. The uncle to whom Patton had spoken had somehow aroused Patton's suspicions that Cardenas might be at the San Miguelito hacienda. Patton decided to visit the rancho located some six to eight miles to the north. Recent reports had indicated that Cardenas might have as many as 20 men with him, so Patton felt he should investigate cautiously.
Lieutenant Patton halted his automobiles on the reverse slope of a hill about a mile from the hacienda. Taking the leading automobile, Lunt, one soldier, and the driver, Patton ordered the rest of the party to remain hidden.
Patton would pass the house and stop at the northwest corner. The soldier and driver were to remain with the automobile to cover the west and north sides of the house. Patton and Lunt would go around the north side to the front of the house.
The second and third automobiles were to halt at the southwest corner. Six of the men were ordered to cover the west and the south sides. Two of them moved around the south side to meet Patton in front of the east face of the hacienda.
The corporal remained with the group at the automobiles and the order was for all of them to assemble in the event of any serious fighting.
Since Patton had been to the hacienda previously, he knew where he was going and he quickly left Lunt and the other soldiers behind.
Arriving at the east face, Patton saw an old man and a young boy near the fence in front of the gate, skinning a steer.
It was only a moment before Patton saw three horsemen emerge from the hacienda. They were armed with rifles and pistols. Catching sight of Patton, they wheeled their mounts and made for the southeast corner of the ranch. Upon reaching there, they encountered the other soldiers advancing from the south.
Patton held his fire. According to typical American custom, the politicians in Washington had sent Pershing into Mexico with explicit orders that his men may not "initiate" any action, that is to say, attack the enemy. They could, however, defend themselves if they were fired upon.
The Mexican "General" and his two men had turned their horses again, heading north. Apparently they thought that they would have a much better chance against the lone figure of Patton. Unfortunately, they had no way of knowing that they would be going against one of the finest marksmen in the United States Army, as a matter of fact, the whole world. Patton had, in 1912, set a world's record at the Olympics at Stockholm, Sweden during practice for the pistol competition.
At a distance of about 20 yards, the Mexican opened fire on Patton. Patton returned the fire with a deliberate 5 rounds. One of the rounds hit the lead rider and broke his arm. Another round went into the belly of the horse he was riding.
By this time, the other American soldiers had made their way around the corner and had started shooting. Patton ducked back around the corner to get out of their line of fire. Patton reloaded his single action Colt.
The other two riders galloped by him at a range of ten paces, firing at and MISSING both Patton and Lunt.
Patton returned the fire, hitting the nearest Mexican's horse, which fell on the rider. Patton actually waited for the man to extricate himself from underneath the animal. When he was free and he rose to fire at Patton, Patton killed him with one shot, fired from under his left arm.
The third Mexican swerved his horse to his right and galloped to the east. Patton and two other soldiers opened up at the fleeing bandito.
Mr. Lunt, being a civilian, was unarmed. He could not join in the shooting, and was, indeed, happy that he was with Lieutenant Patton. The third Mexican met a swift death.
More gunfire was heard by Patton at the southwest corner when the corporal and three men were posted. The first man that Patton had wounded was running along the south wall. With all of the Americans firing at him, he returned the fire. He then stopped shooting. When he was approached, he raised his left arm apparently in surrender.
He then drew his pistol with his right hand, fired once, and crumpled to the ground, dead.
It was found upon examination that he had been hit only once. Patton's Colt .45 had put a bullet through his left forearm and into his chest. He was the first one shot, the last to die, and he was identified as Cardenas. The second man was Jaun Gaza. The third man was never identified.
The old "Life Goes On" adage was well proven by the old man and the young boy. All through the gun battle they had quietly continued to skin the steer on which they had been working.
It speaks volumes for the discipline and courage of the American soldiers in that they did not fire at them, as well as the others.
After securing the roof of the hacienda, Patton entered the front door and searched the premises for any other armed enemy. No one was present except women and children.
The three dead "Villistas" were then strapped across the fenders of the Dodge Touring cars. As a precaution, the telephone lines into the town of Rubio were cut. Although the town was filled with Villa sympathizers and the sight of the dead Mexicans caused much excitement, the party of Americans made it through without incident.
Patton reached camp and he interrupted Pershing in a meeting. Pershing was furious until he saw the three bodies that Patton had dumped at the front of Pershing's tent. From then on, Pershing referred to Patton as his "Bandit".
When the wire services picked up the story, Patton was an immediate national hero. His adventure was the only exciting action to come out of the entire Punitive Expedition."

The Unknown Patton Chapter Two (Motorized Warfare in Mexico)

 

Easy.
Mason of course!

Though Scott has become so much entwined with the image of Patton in my mind I always think actual pictures of the man himself look somehow 'wrong'.

Cheers,
Adam.

 

Holy grapefruit! What a story! No way a German could have a background like that, unless he had been to Mexico with Emperor Max, who had been Austrian, by the way. Adolf had been an Austrian too but he never met any banditos!

 

I do have to admit that Patton was a very colorful character. I have no doubt to his bravery. Too bad he had to die because of a stupid car accident.

 

i thought it was more like an episode of the high chaperal!and rommel any day of the week.

 

Pattyn was a terrible General most of you probably don't know but he slapped a soldier for being sick he was a jerk.

 

Patton was certainly NOT a terrible General. And he did not slap the soldier(s) because they were "sick".


From a letter dated August 16, 1943 by Lt. Col. Perrin H. Long, Medical Corps, on the subject of "Mistreatment of Patients in Receiving Tents".
"Exhibit 1 - Pvt. Charles H. Kuhl, L Company, 26th Infantry, 1st Division, was seen in the aid station on August 2, 1943. A diagnosis of "Exhaustion" was made. He was evacuated to C Company, 1st Medical Battalion. There was a note made on the patient's Emergency Medical Tag that he had been admitted to Company C three times for "Exhaustion" during the Sicilian Campaign. From C Company he was evacuated to the clearing company and there was put in "quarters" and was given sodium mytal. On 3 August 1943, the following note appears on the E.M.T. "Psychoneurosis anxiety state - moderate severe" (soldier has been twice before in hospital within ten days. He can't take it at the front, evidently. He is repeatedly returned). He was evacuated to the 15th Evacuation Hospital. While he was waiting in the receiving tent, Lt. Gen. George S. Patton, Jr., came into the tent with the commanding officer and other medical officers. The general spoke to the various patients in the receiving tent and especially commended the wounded men. Then he came to Pvt. Kuhl and asked him what was the matter. The soldier replied, "I guess I can't take it." The general immediately flared up, cursed the soldier, called him all types of a coward, then slapped him across the face with his gloves and finally grabbed the soldier by the scruff of his neck and kicked him out of the tent. The soldier was immediately picked up by corpsmen and taken to a ward tent. There he was found to have a temperature of 102.2 degrees F and he gave a history of chronic diarrhea for about one month, having at times as high as ten or twelve stools a day. The next day his fever continued and a blood smear was found to be positive for malarial parasites. The final disposition diagnosis was chronic dysentery and malaria. This man had been in the Army eight months and with the 1st Division since about June 2d."
"Exhibit 2 - Pvt. Paul G. Bennet, C Battery, 17th Field Artillery, was admitted to the 93rd Evacuation Hospital on 10 August '43. This patient was a 21 year old boy who had served four years in the regular Army. His unit had been with II Corps since March and he had never had any difficulties until August 6th, when his buddy was wounded. He could not sleep that night and felt nervous. The shells going over him bothered him. The next day he was worried about his buddy and became more nervous. He was sent down to the rear echelon by a battery aid man and there the medical officer game him some medicine which made him sleep, but still he was nervous and disturbed. On the next day the medical officer ordered him to be evacuated, although the "boy" begged not to be evacuated because he did not want to leave his unit. Lt. Gen. George S. Patton, Jr., entered the receiving tent and spoke to all the injured men. The next patient was sitting huddled up and shivering. When asked what his trouble was, the man replied, "It's my nerves," and he began to sob. The General then screamed at him, "What did you say?" The man replied, "It's my nerves, I can't stand the shelling anymore." He was still sobbing. The General then yelled at him, "Your nerves, hell; you are just a Goddamned coward, you yellow son of a bitch." He then slapped the man and said, "Shut up that Goddamned crying. I won't have these brave men here who have been shot at seeing a yellow bastard sitting here crying." He then struck the man again, knocking his helmet liner off and into the next tent. He then turned to the admitting officer and yelled, "Don't admit this yellow bastard; there's nothing the matter with him. I won't have the hospitals cluttered up with these sons of bitches who haven't got the guts to fight." He then turned to the man again, who was managing to sit at attention though shaking all over and said, "You're going back to the front lines and you may get shot and killed, but you're going to fight. If you don't, I'll stand you up against a wall and have a firing squad kill you on purpose. In fact," he said, reaching for his pistol, "I ought to shoot you myself, you Goddamned whimpering coward." As he left the tent, the general was still yelling back to the receiving officer to send that yellow son of a bitch back to the front line. Nurses and patients attracted by the shouting and cursing came from adjoining tents and witnessed this disturbance. The deleterious effects of such incidents upon the well being of patients, upon the professional morale of hospital staffs, and upon the relationship of patient to physician are incalculable. It is imperative that immediate steps be taken to prevent a recurrence of such incidents."



The Unknown Patton Chapter Eight (The Slapping Incidents)