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Pics: In Peiper's footsteps (La Gleize-Cheneux)

Discussion in 'Western Europe' started by Martin Bull, May 1, 2013.

  1. KodiakBeer

    KodiakBeer Member

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    Yes, Baugnez... Also, the murders at the Legaye house and other murders in and around Stavelot have been discussed on this site. We would all love to hear any civilian accounts from those terrible days.

    What do you know of the Lemaire-Crismer house where Tiger 105 ended up? Is this your fathers family?
     
  2. Liliane CRISMER

    Liliane CRISMER New Member

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    Crismer is the only local family (my husband's family) so yes, certainly relative with him.
    Do you know the name of the street where was the Tiger ?

    And this family Crismer was also parent with Legaye.
    I live 300 meters from the house Legaye where there was the massacre and 1 km from the village of Parfondruy where there was a terrible massacre too.
    Here is a photo Parfondruy.
    My grandfather (arrow) was a carpenter.
    He had to drop all the dead in mass graves in the courtyard of the abbey
     

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  3. KodiakBeer

    KodiakBeer Member

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    The Lemaire-Crismer house is on Rue Haute Rivage.

    This house:

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  4. Liliane CRISMER

    Liliane CRISMER New Member

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    Hello...

    I try to learn more about this house on our website facebook .
    I hope someone can help me.

    Today, I went to Parfondruy. Here are some pictures... ( Chapelle Sainte Lucie )
     

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  5. Liliane CRISMER

    Liliane CRISMER New Member

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    Parfondruy :
     

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  6. KodiakBeer

    KodiakBeer Member

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    Are the houses where the massacres took place?
     
  7. Liliane CRISMER

    Liliane CRISMER New Member

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  8. KodiakBeer

    KodiakBeer Member

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    No. The Parfondruy murders happened in the basement of the Legrand farm under the orders of SS-Untersturmfuhre Droge. I don't know which house is the Legrand home. They killed 24 people in the basement, first by burning them and then shooting the survivors of the fire. Very brutal, very cruel.

    This same group then went into western edge of Stavelot and killed more people at the LeGaye house. Those men were then captured after a battle across the street at the Gregoire home. The Americans captured 18 Germans, but only turned 12 over as prisoners. It seems that the GI's may have shot 6 of the Germans after discovering the bodies in the yard of the LeGaye home.

    I'm sure you have seen this photo taken at the LeGaye home. The child in the foreground is 4 year old Paul Prince.
     

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  9. gtblackwell

    gtblackwell Well-Known Member Patron  

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    KB, that is a hard photograph to just look at, I cannot imagine being there. I do not know how the American soldiers showed the restraint they did. speaks well of them.

    Gaines
     
  10. Martin Bull

    Martin Bull Acting Wg. Cdr Patron  

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    Hello Liliane and many thanks for your fascinating contributions here - I have visited the Stavelot area many times.......the Legrand Farm is actually in the small hamlet of Renardmont, and today a small memorial stands in front of the farmhouse which has altered very little since 1944.
     
  11. Liliane CRISMER

    Liliane CRISMER New Member

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    ( just one thing: It's sad that your site does not send an email saying there was a reply to my post. I have to go by myself via the link on this page to look if you answered.)


    Yes, KB, I know this very sad picture.

    I'll take a picture of Legaye house today . It is not far from my home. ( 200 meters ?)
    I know the Prince family.
    Dad Prince remarried after the war and had two girls I know very well, Lisette and Josette Prince. ( They are a few years older than me)

    You say " Those men were then captured after a battle across the street at the Gregoire home."
    Do you know the name of the street from this Gregoire home?
    I'll explain.
    Prince dad remarried a woman who was the sister of my neighbor across the street.
    This neighbor Alice Lucas had married Emile Gregoire.
    Is it possible that the arrest of Germans be made in the Gregoire home in front of my home?

    This is possible because the Gregoire home is in the same street as the Legaye home, on the same side of the street.
    Mom's house is on the other side of the street, between the Legaye home and Gregory home.

    I do not know but I will ask to the son of Lady Gregoire-Lucas who is a friend of mine.
    Lady Alice Gregoire-Lucas and her husband died now. Their son Louis is 60 years old like me.

    Here you will find explanations of the massacre Legaye in English

    The castle Lambert was a castle a few meters from the house Legaye. It is destroyed now.

    http://www.criba.be/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=48
     
  12. Liliane CRISMER

    Liliane CRISMER New Member

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    I do not need to go shoot. I found on Google street view
     

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  13. KodiakBeer

    KodiakBeer Member

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    Yes, I think it must be the same house. There were about 30 Germans in the Gregoire house and perhaps 12 were killed in the battle. The GI's, led by a Lt. Warnock, entered the house and the Germans fled into the basement and the upstairs.

    From Lt. Warnock's report: Note that he counts only 12 prisoners, but from other sources it is known he took 18 Germans from the Gregoire house. Also note, he thinks the Germans were later hanged, but they were not.

    There was a big argument over the radio between Warnock, a Captain Kent, and Colonel Frankland (the Battalion commander). Warnock at first refused to bring the German prisoners back, saying he could not stop his men from executing them after they had seen the dead children. After arguments and threats, he did bring 12 prisoners back and it seems certain that they shot 6 of the Germans.
     
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  14. Liliane CRISMER

    Liliane CRISMER New Member

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    They have done well ...
    I show you my house, the Gregoire Home and my mom's house. Everything is together in the same area.
    Legaye home is on the left on the same road.
    Are you satisfied with my answers? I'll still call Louis Grégoire to be sure...







    SORRY it is not the good Gregoire house. Look after, on next post , I show you the good one !
     

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  15. KodiakBeer

    KodiakBeer Member

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    They only brought them back because of threats from the Battalion commander. And it seems evident that they did in fact shoot six of them.

    The group who murdered the civilians at the LeGrand and LeGaye houses were from KG Knittel.

    Some American prisoners from 117th IR were executed in the southern part of town - probably by men from KG Sandig. Though, the GI's weren't aware of this as yet.

    And of course, the prisoners shot at Baugnez were killed by KG Peiper.

    Other GI's were killed at Wereth - black GI's who were mutilated and tortured.

    Civilians were killed at Wanne also, just south of Stavelot.
     
  16. KodiakBeer

    KodiakBeer Member

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    Yes, thank you very much!
     
  17. Liliane CRISMER

    Liliane CRISMER New Member

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    I called Louis Grégoire and he told me that it was not the house of his parents during the war.
    It was the home Philippart ...
    He told me dad Prince had lost his wife and three children in the massacre Legaye...

    He does not know Grégoire home that you speak.. but he told me that you should contact Patrice Lefèbre (it's on Facebook) because he wrote books on war Stavelot.
    Here is his FB address:
    https://www.facebook.com/lefebvre.patrice.9?fref=ts
     
  18. KodiakBeer

    KodiakBeer Member

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  19. Poppy

    Poppy grasshopper

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    KB is puzzled.
     
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  20. KodiakBeer

    KodiakBeer Member

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    I'm often puzzled...

    Liliane gave me a link to a site with civilian accounts of the battle around Stavelot. I had to convert it to English, but several people remarked that the Germans which committed the atrocities were dressed in American uniforms, with German helmets. I wonder if they mistook the baggy jacket of the Waffen SS for the similar American jacket?

    I know some Skorzeny troops were along, but no records show them beyond Stavelot where these murders took place.
     
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