Poles in WW2

I must thank You Martin Bull, Heartland, Kai-Petri and Polak z Polski
You are the only who seem to be without so called "polish chauvinist-phobia"
thats the only argument which is used to diqualify my oppinions.

-

with that sentence you prooved that your knowladge of 2WW is very subjective. Polish Wehrmacht was Silesian boys forcely drafted by the Germans. You can not say that about western Waffen SS units (mostly voluteers)

OK I understand your outfit it is a kind of hobby No problem with that.

and General der Infanterie Friedrich H:
please dont try to find antisemite in me. You will not succeed. Personally I can give you stories about Polish NSZ fighters who fought against Germans and same time killed Jews escaping from Nazi captivity, like those from Sobibor. For me is the biggest shame. It does not change my oppinion that Polish underground army representaed by AK was the biggest during 2WW and again I must remind You that those acts wouldnt happen If here was a Polish government with the Police force and Law order.


Mahross:

 

Stanchev, I come to this discussion late, but none the less...

Poland did much for the allied cause in ww2, I dont think any one doubts that. Be it in their homeland or serving with other nations. No one can doubt their bravery and courage.

However, and there is always an howerver. Must I point you to 1936, and the laws enacted in Poland in regards to Jews in Poland? I take it you know the countries history in the years directly preceeding ww2. And I have no wish for any slanging matches, but history is history, written laws enacted in the countries own parliament were written and were enacted, its that simple.

If you wish though we can go through them in detail?

 

Yes I will be very grateful if you give me some details

 

Anyway even If your statements were truth I dont think Poland had more unjust Law that other democratic coutries that time Coutries like Australia (towards minorities, ) South Africa (blacks) USA ( blacks, indians, immigrants) etc.

 

As Kai said, you guys simply cannot read…

I've told you that I don't think you're an anti-semite nor that I'll try to make you look like one. But as words are menaningless to you… I simply do not care what you are or what you seem to be (and I won't mention exactly what impression you've cause on us, because I normally don't use bad words).

And please prove where exactly have I thrown mud on Polish soldiers. I haven't stopped phraising the efforts of Poles at Cassino, Normandy, Arnhem, etcetera, over and over again. But maybe you need bloody Egyptian cryptograms to understand!

Now, what about not doing what the Russians, Germans or Poles did: supporting idiocy (though, in this case, is not a dictatorship what I'm talking about) by paying attention to it?

 

He says he wants a 'cease fire' after slagging us off... nice... Kinda sums him up...

But he still dont stop...

Thats not the point!!!! We arnt trying to say they did merely to show some balance to your askewed views... And you proclaim to 'Know more than anyone' yet you dont know about the laws inacted in the 1930's...

Bless...

 

And as Im a little annoyed...

I found this interesting piece from the Journal of Holocaust studies...

"Despite the Minorities Treaty, Jews were subjected to discrimination and violence during the interwar years. Overt antisemitism was somewhat mitigated during the rule of Joseph Pilsudski, 1926-1935. After Pilsudski's death, however, rightwing groups dominated the government and did little to protect Jews. Pogroms against Jews occurred in 1936 and 1937; and during 1938 a number of riots took place in Warsaw. In addition to the discrimination and violence against Jews, Jews experienced a declining economic situation. As the historian Yehuda Bauer describes:

In 1931, 1,123,025 Jews were gainfully employed. Of these 277,555 were laborers, about 200,000 were artisans, 428,965 were traders (with their families), 1,140,532). By 1935, 400,000 traders and their families were living in poverty. Of the laborers and employees, 60 percent were unemployed or working only part time. Of the 120,000 intellectuals and their families, 60,000 had no steady income. According to the JDC estimates, 1 million Jews, or about one-third of the total, were unemployed or working part-time. On January 8, 1937, the London Jewish Chronicle described the Jews of Poland as "a helpless minority sunk in squalid poverty and misery such as can surely be paralleled nowhere on the face of the earth." In October 1936 the New York-based Jewish writer Sholem Asch said the Polish Jews seemed to be "buried alive. Every second person was undernourished, skeletons of skin and bones, crippled candidates for the grave."
(Yehuda Bauer, A History of the Holocaust, 143)

The bleak economic situation and antisemitic atmosphere did not extinguish Jewish intellectual and cultural activities. Hebrew and Yiddish schools flourished; many newspapers and books were published; and theaters were well attended. Political life was also vital. Jews divided into three different political streams. The Agudat Israel which advocated a fundamental religious life for Jews; the secular anti-Zionist Bund that sought a free socialist Poland that allowed Jews a certain amount of autonomy; and the Zionists who pressed for Jewish political and economic rights before Jews would be able to emigrate to Palestine.

Thus, on the eve of World War II, Jews of Poland were an impoverished minority divided among themselves as to their political aspirations."

Dont seem that rosy to me... Seems that Anti-semtitism did exist in Poland before WW2.

Note I say did exist... Not saying all Poles felt that way but I think the Journal of Holocaust studies sums it up quite well.

 

Off course there was antisemitizm just like now
But what's the connection between antisemitizm in 1930's and Poles fighting Nazis in 2WW????

 

Thats not the point!!!! We arnt trying to say they did merely to show some balance to your askewed views... And you proclaim to 'Know more than anyone' yet you dont know about the laws inacted in the 1930's...

</font>[/QUOTE]about Holocaust commited by Germans on polish soil off course I know almost everything and I will be happy to share my knowledge with you
If you have any questions?

 

Yeah? And I know everything about queer life in ancient Greece and Rome… in case you wanted to know.

 

The second part is most certainly true, and 303 Squadron's combat record in just a few weeks of operating from Northolt was quite remarkable.

But the latest research - from 1996 - into actual victories against claimed victories by all RAF Squadrons in the Battle gives a truer picture of actual victories.

Cross-referencing claims in PRO/AIR16/960 with the now-available Luftwaffe Quartermaster returns as well against the exhaustive information from aviation archaeologists contained in 'Battle of Britain - Then & Now' , historian John Alcorn produced a 'league table' which is now generally regarded as being as accurate as possible given current documentation : -

#1 : 603 Sqn 67 claimed/57.8 credited
#2 : 609 Sqn 97 claimed/48 credited
#3 : 41 Sqn 89.5 claimed/45 credited
#4 : 303 Sqn 130 clained/44 credited
#5 : 501 Sqn 100 claimed/43 credited

 

Fewer people are aware, however, of the contribution made during the Battle by Polish pilots, contribution which is perhaps most vividly described in the words of Air Chief Marshall Sir Hugh Dowding, the C-in-C of the RAF Fighter Command during the Battle:

(...) had it not been for the magnificent material contributed by the Polish squadrons and their unsurpassed gallantry, I hesitate to say that the outcome of battle would have been the same.


Excerpt from the diary of a German Heinkel pilot (it's also an interesting snapshot of brain-washed Nazi mentality):

"Moeller says that Poles are excellent pilots. He's not the first to say that, others have noticed that too. They're unpredictable, they fight fiercely like dogs, damned well at that. Moeller says you can feel in the air how they hate us. Personally, I don't have such feelings towards them. Why should I? After all, it wasn't us who started the war and, equally well, they could now be attacking England with us [sic!]. However, people often don't know what's good for them. Many of them don't even know why they hate us"

 

King George VI visited the unit during the Battle of Britain on September 26. Just left of him, partly visible is S/Ldr Urbanowicz, who took over after S/Ldr Krasnodebski was wounded. Presenting pilots is S/Ldr Kellet. King shakes hand with P/O Feric, who oh his right has P/O Zumbach, F/O Cebrzynski and F/O Januszewicz.

S/Ldr Zumbach in May 1942.

Sgt Popek, who later flew with the Skalski's Circus.


3 June 1944. RAF Horne.
The ceremony of presentation of the 303 badge to General Strahen, Major Cummings and Captain Chess. This three American officers served in 1919 in Polish no. 7 "Kosciuszko" Squadron, from which the 303 derived.





P/O Damm killed in action in August 1942.

 

Now that sounds like a topic for its own sub-forum on this site...

 

That's very interesting. Any idea as to why No.603 were so accurate in their claims compared with the other British (or any other nationality/country I have ever seen for that matter) squadrons? All things considered they have a remarkably low amount of overclaim!

 

Ver good question indeed, Heartland. Could be due to a number of cicumstances but I would guess mainly discipline and leadership, plus maybe a harder attitude to claims from individual Intelligence Officers .

Interesting also that both top-scoring squadrons were Auxiliary units ( sneered at as 'weekend warriors' by regular units ) so maybe they didn't feel pressure of living up to a reputation.

BTW, no-one should take BofB overclaiming as evidence of fraud or foolishness on the part of the pilots. In the confusion of combat and the desire to excel, errors in claiming were common. For instance, many Messerschmitts were claimed 'diving out of control, pouring black smoke'. Only much later was the 'bunt' ( an immediate nose-down dive ) realised to be a standard Luftwaffe tactic. The 'bunt' would cause the fuel injection to surge, thus emitting a stream of black smoke....

 

Martin, what were auxiliary squadrons? The RAF version of the Territorial Army?