Polish Army in WW2

Combatants are usually too busy to take photos, war-crime scenes are often different; no-one is shooting back.

Average footsoldiers, especially in the war's early stages, could not afford miniature ( 35mm ) cameras or were prohibited from carrying them on duty.

Many of the war's most famous images ( Alamein, Iwo Jima, Arnhem etc ) have now been found to have been posed, re-staged or even faked by professional photographers.

[ 09. February 2004, 02:19 PM: Message edited by: Martin Bull ]

 

I always try to welcome new members very warmly. But these last few weeks we've been having lots of nonsense posts of new members from certain country who incredibly overrate their country's participation in WWII. And in your case, a first post which tries to put as a fact what you assume might have happened was not a sign for me to welcome you as I usually do.

But anyways. Sorry. Welcome aboard! Hope you enjoy yourself here.

 

Not exactly a source, but it's nice. The charge of Pomorska Brigade.









[ 09. February 2004, 03:16 PM: Message edited by: General der Infanterie Friedrich H ]

 

I also have read somewhere that the polish attacked because they thought that the canvas tanks used in training by the Germans were actual frontline tanks. Which explains why they charged the tanks. Cannot remember where I read it.

 

From William L. Shirer's "Rise and Fall of the Third Reich" (pages 827-829):

"By the evening of the previous day the battle for the Corridor had ended with the junction of General von Kluge's Fourth Army, pushing eastward from Pomerania, and General von Kuechler's Third Army, driving westward from East Prussia. It was in this battle that General Heinz Guderian first made a name for himself with his tanks. At one point, racing east across the Corridor, they had been counterattacked by the Pomorska Brigade of cavalry, and this writer, coming upon the scene a few days later, saw the sickening evidence of the carnage. It was symbolic of the brief Polish campaign.

Horses against tanks! The cavalryman's long lance against the tank's long cannon! Brave and valiant and foolhardy though they were, the Poles were simply overwhelmed by the German onslaught. This was their – and the world's – first experience of the blitzkrieg: the sudden surprise attack; the fighter planes and bombers roaring overhead, reconnoitering, attacking, spreading flame and terror; the Stukas screaming as they dove; the tanks, whole divisions of them, breaking through and thrusting forward thirty or forty miles in a day; self-propelled, rapid-firing heavy guns rolling forty miles an hour down even the rutty Polish roads; the incredible speed of even the infantry, of the whole vast army of a million and a half men on motorized wheels, directed and co-ordinated through a maze of electronic communications consisting of intricate radio, telephone and telegraphic networks. This was a monstrous mechanized juggernaut such as the earth had never seen".

 

Great Photos !!! You have the best sources. I know now, where your history knowledge comes from

[ 09. February 2004, 04:36 PM: Message edited by: Wojtix ]

 

General of infrantry please visit that and have in mind there is well documented case when single soldier destroy 17 soviet vehicles using that equipment (including light tanks.

The armour of pantzerkampfwagen I and II didn't protected against bulets shot from this rifle when shot from distance less than 100 m in front.
"At 100 meters the bullet would penetrate around 33 mm (1.3 ") of armor. This means that at a range of 100 m, a bullet fired from kb ppanc wz. 1935 could destroy or damage any German or Soviet tank used in the aggression against Poland. Other armored vehicles could be destroyed from even greater distance. Contrary to the popular belief, the weapon was widely used by Polish infantry and cavalry."

With all due respect to your historical knowledge would you agree that such rifle is beter when charging tanks than lances and sabres.

best regards!

 

Gentlemen, can we please try a little civility here ?

Slurs, implied or otherwise, on other people's knowledge can cause offence.

A reasonable subject has been raised - the actions of Polish Cavalry - and written sources have been quoted. No comment has been made in reply to these sources. But when photos of a modeller's interpretation of a legendary ( or mythical ) incident are posted, they are immediately repeated and the forum member disparaged.

One last time - can we please get back on topic, with clear, recognized sources quoted, and refrain from personal sniping.

And one last point - if one word of this posting is 'quoted' and thrown back at me I will ask for the topic to be immediately closed.

 

"Contrary to German and Italian propaganda, Polish cavalry brigades never charged tanks with their sabres or lances as they were equipped with anti-tank weapons such as 37mm Bofors wz.36 (exported to UK as Ordnance Q.F. 37mm Mk I) anti-tank guns, that could penetrate 26mm armour at 600m at 30 degrees. The cavalry brigades were in the process of being reorganized into motorized brigades." [1]

Another weapon was anti-tank rifle model 1935 (karabin przeciwpancerny wz. 35). Its caliber was 7.92 mm and it could penetrate 15mm armor at 300m at 30 degrees."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_September_Campaign
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_war_myths
http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Myths-from-Polish-history

"The author puts to rest some of the "romantic myths" about the Blitzkrieg in Poland: namely the idea that the German Luftwaffe destroyed all of the Polish airforce while they were still on the ground, and that the Polish cavalry, armed with lances, would routinely take on German Panzer tanks!"
http://www.historyamericas.com/Poland_1939_The_Birth_of_Blitzkrieg_Campaign_107_1841764086.html

"There are many "myths" that surround the September Campaign; the fictional Polish cavalry charges against German tanks (actually reported by the Italian press and used as propaganda by the Germans), the alleged destruction of the Polish Air Force on the ground, or claims that Polish armour failed to achieve any success against the invaders."
http://www.kasprzyk.demon.co.uk/www/WW2.html

"Many myths surround the German invasion of Poland. The most widespread myth is that of the infamous Polish cavalry charge against German armor, which was originally reported by the Italian press, and became popular with German propagandists."
http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/9764/warpoland.html

 

Just out of interest - do any of these websites quote a source, authority, or book ? Why are they so coy about doing this ?

 

Wojtix, please edit your quote. We don't need the same photos posted twice. Thanks.

 

British source:
Polish cavalry charge against German tanks never took place (see Norman Davies' "God's Playground.A History of Poland)

"There are many "myths" that surround the September Campaign; the fictional Polish cavalry charges against German tanks (actually reported by the Italian press and used as propaganda by the Germans), the alleged destruction of the Polish Air Force on the ground, or claims that Polish armour failed to achieve any success against the invaders."

http://www.kasprzyk.demon.co.uk/www/WW2.html
Sources:
http://www.kasprzyk.demon.co.uk/www/PolishBooks.html

Poland 1939: The Birth of Blitzkrieg (Campaign 107)
by Authors: Steve Zaloga , Howard Gerrard , Steven J. Zaloga , Ramiro Bujeiro

"The author puts to rest some of the "romantic myths" about the Blitzkrieg in Poland: namely the idea that the German Luftwaffe destroyed all of the Polish airforce while they were still on the ground, and that the Polish cavalry, armed with lances, would routinely take on German Panzer tanks!"
http://www.historyamericas.com/Poland_1939_The_Birth_of_Blitzkrieg_Campaign_107_1841764086.html

"Many myths surround the German invasion of Poland. The most widespread myth is that of the infamous Polish cavalry charge against German armor, which was originally reported by the Italian press, and became popular with German propagandists."
By Stephen Payne (no Pole)
http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/9764/warpoland.html

Contrary to German and Italian propaganda, Polish cavalry brigades never charged tanks with their sabres or lances as they were equipped with anti-tank weapons such as 37mm Bofors wz.36 (exported to UK as Ordnance Q.F. 37mm Mk I) anti-tank guns, that could penetrate 26mm armour at 600m at 30 degrees. The cavalry brigades were in the process of being reorganized into motorized brigades." [1]

Another weapon was anti-tank rifle model 1935 (karabin przeciwpancerny wz. 35). Its caliber was 7.92 mm and it could penetrate 15mm armor at 300m at 30 degrees."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_September_Campaign
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_war_myths
http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Myths-from-Polish-history
(British or American)

Polish Militaria Collector’s Association in memory of Andrzej Zaremba
49 Parkville Avenue Apt. A-6 Brooklyn, New York 11230
Http.//www.hetmanusa.org
Tel. (718) 633-3439

"In most instances, the information relating to Poland was completely inaccurate or purposely falsified. One example of media misinformation was the claim that Poland surrendered in three days and the ever-popular myth of Polish cavalry charges against German tanks during the September 1939 campaign in Poland."
http://www.hetmanusa.org/engmainframe.html

"There are several myths that surround the Polish campaign in WWII. One common myth is that the Luftwaffe wiped out the helpless Polish air force on the ground in the opening days of the war. Certainly the Germans enjoyed air superiority and their planes caused tremendous damage, but in fact their attacks on Polish air bases proved utterly ineffective. The very first shots fired in the war came from German dive bombers at 4:30am, who struck an airfield in Poznan, but the base had already been evacuated. The Poles had secretly hidden their best aircraft at alternate bases, although it is true that the Luftwaffe did severely damage the bases themselves, their supply depots and the aircraft used for spare parts. However, no functioning Polish aircraft was destroyed on the ground until 14 September, two weeks into the war.

The most infamous myth is the fantasy that the Polish cavalry charged at German tanks. These units were thought to be the best horsemen in Europe, but were relied upon mainly for their cost-effectiveness, since few vehicles were available. Despite their antiquated means of travel, Polish cavalry were used primarily as heavy infantry for break-outs or surprise attacks. They carried machine guns, 7.92mm anti-tank rifles, and 37mm anti-tank guns which could easily take out German armor. Cavalry charges were not a standard tactic, but on the first day of the war a Polish cavalry regiment discovered a battalion of Germans in a field and led a charge against them. The Germans were caught off guard and suffered severe casualties, but were rescued by the advancing panzers, who opened fire on the exposed cavalry. The Poles fled, but only lost 20 men, including the commanding officer, Colonel Kazimierz Mastelarz. However, when Italian journalists visited the battlefield the following day, the Germans told them that the cavalry had charged against their tanks and were wiped out. This fabrication was put into print and the Nazi propaganda made sure it was widely publicized, and therefore widely believed."
http://www.angelfire.com/ct/ww2europe/1939.html
by Brandon Kyle Leniart

[ 09. February 2004, 06:54 PM: Message edited by: Wojtix ]

 

http://www.uky.edu/~grissom/polcav.htm

 

I wouldn't want to be inside Germans Pantzer I or II when Polish soldier with Ur rifle was nearby (less than 100m ).

And please search the net there must be there some photo...one single photo. All I want polish soldier attacking a tank with lance. I want to know how it looks like. From rear (no hairy thoughts ) or from the front?

BTW. when a lead bullet hit a steal plate with velocity exceed 1000m per/sec its not penetrate but flatten on the surface. If steel plate aren't thick enought steel parts splatter inside the vehicle. How a steel plate react after being hit by lance I have no idea

 

Do you mean a thermal lance?



No.9

 

Excellent photo thank you. But the physic and the math are sciences. Did you ever hear about the kinetic energy? You can destroy (theoretically) M1A1 Abrams main battle tank using?a golf ball. All you have to do is speed up a ball properly. Moreover you can count the exact velocity needed to pierce an amour. About history we can have different points of views. In every country the history is perceived slightly differently but THERE IS THE ONLY ONE MATH AND THE ONE PHISICS.

Returning to the Ur rifles - I can tell you what was the problem with it. It wasn't properly used ? mostly one team (two people were needed to operate, one was gunner the second was spare barrel and ammunition carrier per platoon. The right way was to create special antitank platoon armed with lest's say 10 rifles. But that is question about tactics of using not the weapon per se.

Please share with us some more funny photos - maybe a light sword? How about that?
Regards!

 

Polish Ulans charging German Panzers with Sabres and lances is rubbish.

Oh, I can't say that this hadn't happened maybe once or twice, at least having in mind that the Poles had a pretty large number of Ulans, but I also _can't_ say that German soldiers didn't charged T-34 with iron bars here and then.

Generally, the myth was established by incidents of

a) Polish Cavalary trying to break out of pockets and encirclements. In this breakouts, the "Panzer sector" was to be believed the easiest to break through, why? - I don't know.

b) Polish Cavalary caught in retreat by German Panzers

c) Polish Cavalary charging German Infantry or Cavalary, but getting caught by called in German armored cars or tank units.


But these incidents were only exceptions to the rule, supporting that there were no such thing like Cavalary charges with Lances and Sabres against German tanks.

So, yes, it's a myth, and no we can't be absolutely sure that it never happened.

Cheers,

[ 10. February 2004, 03:32 AM: Message edited by: AndyW ]

 

Andy may be right. And no one said that it was the general rule nor the standard tactics of the Polish Army.

But certainly the surrounded Poles were in dispair, full of patriotic fervour, uncommunicated with other units, with their command system collapsing and with orders to resist to the last man. At least such a charge happening once —and perhaps at a very little scale— is enough to be a very remarkable paragraph in any book, whether it was significant or not.

 

Well, here is the story prewar:

Polish cavalry and interwar history

http://www.geocities.com/kumbayaaa/polrepcav.html

from:

http://www.geocities.com/kumbayaaa/polreparmy.html

 

Thanks for exellent links Kai.

General der Infanterie Friedrich H, it seems we are reaching the consensus here. When you are encirkled and have a horse you can either become POW or try to fight your way through the enemy. Simple. When you are encirled by tanks you have to charge against tanks and hoping to stay alive. Small chance I quess. All I am trying to say (maybe at first not clearly enough) that was situations where calvary men charged under a fire of tanks. Nonetheless it doesn't mean they try to pierce an armour with lances because its impossible. They were tanks in Polish Army so soldiers must have had same contacts with them, so they must have known its imposible. As about wooden tanks - in that case I would recomend using an axe because lances are useless against thick wood. Try it at home take a thick piece of wood and something sharp and long. Do you think its possible to pierce through? You can agree calvarymen must have known what they lances are capable of?
BTW - why nobody says 'Stupid polish calvary try to destroy a Pantzer I with an old mausers from IWW?' Impossible as with lances but what a difference when you listen. Even old Manlicher sounds repectable - its the rifle after all, but a lance makes you think of XV century Who said dr Geoebbels wasn't a pro

[ 10. February 2004, 10:40 AM: Message edited by: Fredd ]