PZ4+Panther turret=victory tank

Ok, Jadgermeister. Germany produced the most Panzer IVs in 1944 with some 6,700. Had she been maintaining those levels throughout the war she would have produced a lot of tanks.

EXCEPT, during 1943, the United States produced some 21,000 Sherman tanks. Now if she had maintained this production rate over the same period of time, she would have BURIED Germany.

So, maintaining maximum production rates does not help your argument one bit.

I would suggest you go back and re-read Jentz & Doyle again. As of June 21, 1941, Wa Pruef 6 was not even sure that the 88mm/L71 could be mounted on a heavy tank. On that date they asked Dr. Porsche about mounting the gun on his VK 45.01(P) design. On September 10, 1941, Dr. Porsche responded that the 88mm/L56 could be considered for his design.

So, please explain how a tank mounting the 88mm/L71 gun was ordered before June 22, 1941, when the Germans themselves were unsure if the gun could fit on a tank on June 21, 1941?

 

This is obviously a very emotional post, because you missed the entire premise of the first paragraph, and you answer your own question the second time.

First off, Someone said that Germany COULD NOT produce as many tanks as Russia ACTUALLY made. I showed that they technically could have, if resources provided for those two early years. Just because it would have been technically possible for the Allies to increase production does not mean in any way that Germany could not have matched ACTUAL Allied numbers.
I was simply stating that Germany did in fact have the ability to equal the number of tanks that were ACTUALLY produced. I successfully answered the question of if Germany could have physically matched the ACTUAL numbers of other countries.

Your second question makes no sense, you try and disprove that the L/71 was ordered into a tank....by saying it was indeed ordered into a tank. How does that prove me wrong that the Germans indeed did order the KT before they even saw the T-34? That was the entire point, the T-34 could not have caused the creation of the Tigers, and that the reason the T-34 was not copied had nothing to do with HAVING to do better. Its not like the Germans would have know the Russians would have produced a ton of them. It is illogical to say the Tigers and Panther were created because they knew they T-34 would be produced in numbers. They produced the Tigers and Panther because of a completely separate doctrine that already existed, the doctrine of putting a great AT gun in a tank.
I also stated the Tiger was an interim design to fit the L/56, which you tried to disprove by saying the L/56 was fitted because the L/71 could not be fitted in a tank at the time. That is exactly what I was saying, how does that disprove me?

The end point being that both of us know the KT and Tiger were begun before EVER seeing the T-34, and that the Tiger was fielded in place of the original requirement. Therefore, the KT was started before ever seeing the T-34, and could not have been a response to it, or a compromise to counter numbers of T-34 which did not even exist at the time.

 

Easy there chaps, it's only the Internet and it'd be a shame if this spiralled into the old pissing contests that Panzer-stuff seem to be so prone to.

You buggers have made me take a shufti at Spielberger's Tigger book for stuff on early developments (and that can require at least 3 tins of redbull a page to fight off it's soporific effects, bless it.)

And yet, by August '41; they were successfully fitting a 128/L61 onto VK3001 - Stubborn Emil's those German engineers... not a turreted device, but they weren't defeatist on engineering challenges, pretty much ever.

Adolf seems to have finally ordered that Porsche's 4501 would carry an 88 at a meeting on 26th of May 1941 (& he didn't do this in wild fantasy, the idea was not apparently considered particularly loopy or avant-garde; briefings were doubtless given) but one suspects they knew from day one of the heavy tank project, maybe even as early as '37, that a requirement for large HV guns was likely, bigger than a 75 anyway - it's not as if such pieces were an unknown concept or requirement in German thinking. And in Military development circles the automotive/armour design chaps hardly exist in isolation from the Gun-fettlers.

Anyway, late, drinking, I'll stop now, unless I can face the Panzertracts, and quite possibly find I'm entirely wrong/confused in the AM. .

~A

 

I apologize, and thanks for the info. I do recall some huge Marder-like 128 armed TD that saw action, it was extremely poorly armored. I cant remember the name, we may be talking about the same thing.

 

You recall correctly mate. Sturer Emil/Stubborn Emil, or more snappily; 12.8CM Selbstfahrlafette L61 (Panzerselbstfarlafette V)/VK3001.
Not 100% relevant, as even the title here mentions turrets, but I think it does support that Germany was pretty sanguine about motorising some massive pieces from pretty early on.

I still don't really understand how Germany could have increased Tank production, or out-produced anyone though. It's all very well to say "they would have produced over 60% more tanks if they had been working at full levels since 1939.", but they weren't, didn't, and couldn't, manage it. Even when Speer and his chaps took over they still had too many negative factors (for them... positives as far as I'm concerned) to ever get things going at anywhere near the theoretically possible levels. The actual events appear to confirm that.

~A

 

Having a concept or a 'wish-list' of future trends in tank design is not the same as having all the details worked out.
The TII as developed was not as it could be envisaged in 1941. There was no 'TII pilot' in the works in 1941.
The Panther was influenced by the T34 and it is so obvious that I wonder how it could have been doubted.
The Diamler Benz concept for the eventual contract (which was won by won by MAN) shows it best and it was not until May 1942 that a decision was made to build the MAN Panther instead.
The first Panthers were built in Jan 1943, 18 months after the T-34 appeared in battle.


The DB Panther concept.

 

Just because DB made their panther like the T-34 does not mean the MAN design had anything to do with the T-34. Thats like saying because the US tried to copy the MG-42, that the M1919 was inspired by it. Totally different weapons.

Both the KT and Panther were designed from the outset with sloped armor. They already used it in halftracks for a decade, but French tanks finally pushed them to adapt it into tanks. And why are people so stuck on proving that the Germans took the design from the Russians? Ive already admitted they got a lot of ideas from the French and Polish, the Panther was just not one of them. People keep trying to bring down the German ingenuity, when the Panther had nearly nothing in common with the T-34. In fact, everything about it was different except for its sloped glacis. It had totally different drive system, totally different suspension, far superior gun of almost twice the velocity, and a totally different turret layout. It took nearly nothing from the T-34.

 

Keep digging.
The Panther was pushed through as an emergency measure to counter the T-34.
Being 'based on' the T-34 does not enter into it. It was meant to outperform the T-34 and had several design features the can be seen on the T-34.
I challenge you to provide a plan or schematic of a Tiger/Panther prototype pre-T-34 with sloping armour.

As they were designed (as finished) with sloping armour long AFTER the T-34 debuted then why is that a suprise to you?
Sloping armour 'all around' was the T-34 advantage not just a bit stuck on the front.

 

The UK/CW also outproduced Germany in AFV's and then when you figure Armored Cars,Brens ,SP's and trucks the British/CW advantage is even more.

 

JM, I can only agree with MK here, you're getting way off-beam attempting to minimise the Panther/T34 connection mate.
The original VK3002 medium/heavy scheme was halted completely by the HWa as soon as T34 made it's presence felt in Mid '41 - almost every specification for restarting it was upgraded based directly on T34's features.
The 'second generation' 3002 prototype from DB, as illustrated above, tells the tale quite plainly, and it's entirely safe to see Man's eventually accepted 3002 version as something of a 'Germanification' of that more direct copy.
This one has run in circles before, and I've never really understood why: Panther as it emerged was a beefed up German T34; and that's a pretty uncontroversial statement. It's not about doing down German technical ability at all, it's a plain acceptance of what happened.

~A

 

Just see the first page of Panzertracts 5-1 'Panther D'.

'Then in response to reports of success on the sloped armour on Russian tanks , the VK 20.2(M) was quickly redesigned with sloping armour in Nov 1941...........................The VK20.2(M) already had many of the steeper angles that would be adapted for the future VK 30.2(M)-later known as the 'Panther Programm'

Much the same is said in Jentz, Panther Tank, The Quest For Combat Supremacy' page 12/13

 

Faulty information and easily exposed.


The concept drawing for VK20.02(M) before the T-34



The VK20.02(M) after the T-34. (Nov 1941)




The VK20.02(M) became the Panther.

 

Perhaps you would like to explain how you forgot to include that the preliminary drawings made in 1938 already had highly sloped armor, except that it still had the standard two piece glacis.



Like I said, they absolutely did not get the idea for sloped armor from the Russians.

 

We can only wonder why you did not post this 'highly sloped' (noted the exact words- call them a fig leaf) model so you can show how you were right and everyone else is wrong.

Like you said, and like you wuz wrong.

 

Maybe the Panther is to the T34 as the T34 is to the Christie ?

 

Maybe we should find out what Spielberger has to say on the subject:






'Triggered the re-design of the Panther tank'?

'Major influence on its development'?

'Pressed for a design copy of the tank (the T-34)'?

But hey, what does Spielberger know about German tank design................

 

The very book I've blown the dust off since this cropped up...

Looks like this Russki 'pro-tank.ru' site doesn't allow hotlinking, hence the little flashing icon.
Following the URL, this is the image JM was attempting to post:

Just running a site-search to see what context they place it in.

 

This is the VK20.01(D) concept drawn in October 1940 and it is absurd absurd claim it was from 1938.
It was formaly declared obselete and discontinued in Dec 1941 because of the T-34

From page 10, Jentz. 'Panther Quest For Combat Supremacy'



By now you should all have figures out that the (D) (M) (K) is the manufacturer code D-Benz, Mann, Krupp and the number is the weight (20 tons in this case)

 

Their panther page:
??????? ???? ?-V "???????"
Google Translate

The page that image comes from (seems to be an intermittent error displaying it, first one under 'Daimler') :
???????? ?????: ??????????????? ???????.
Google Translate

Does indeed appear to be one of the 2001s for the Mk.IV (I'll take Jentz, Spielberger et. al. over other sources too!) - that's a glacis hump leading to a slab - not exactly the full glacis and sponson slope that appeared in Man's prototype work after T34 had made 'em jump a bit.
(Even so; Russki site looks quite interesting - might have a mooch there.)

 

The text on the Panther is a straight Russian translation of the Jentz Book 'Quest For Combat Supremacy'. There is no original work there.
It seems our internet trawl 'expert' mixed up the VK 20.1 (III) with the VK 20.01(D)

Top/front view of VK 20.02(M) from November 1941.






The final Panther shape (VK 30.02(M)was not settled until May 1942, 6 months after the above design.