Red Army and Vodka

Sort of getting back to the original topic, when I was in college at Laramie, there was a pizza parlor in town run by this lady with a definite German accent. One night after studying and some beer, we got in the door just before closing time. After taking our order the lady in question got talking to us and for some reason ended up giving us her life story. Pertinent to our topic, at one point she was a nurse in a hospital-of all places-Stalingrad. On the advance that summer they had captured a huge warehouse full of vodka! She said they sterilized their surgical instruments in the liquor, used it as an antiseptic and some enterprising young herrenvolk even put vodka into trailers meant for tank fuel which caused a mighty row when the tanks wouldn't run properly! I remember her saying that she and the others in her medical unit didn't draw a sober breath for months, which helped them cope with the horrors of probably the worst battle in modern history. If I remember correctly she and the rest of the female medical staff were flown out on one of the last flights. I wish I had recorded that conversation but back then WWII vets were a dime a dozen.

 

There's seems to be (at least) one thing I can agree with Tamino... ;-)

 

I'd agree. I think it is possible.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ic3nD-dFReY

 

There are so many things on which we may agree but if we focus to just one thing all the times, we cannot not agree that often.

For example: do you like "Pilsner Urquell" from Pilsen (Czech: Plzeň)? In my opinion it is equally good as the Czech Budweisser or even a bit better.

 

Below, I will cite an Antony Bevor's rant over the Russians - the "Drunken Rapists" - in his view. Calculate how many tons of 40%vodka per day would be required to make millions of the Russian soldiers that drunk every day as he describes them. Russians had 100g of 40% vodka per day per head, nothing more. Where is that Vodka Ocean? Can a drunken army win a war against such a formidable opponent as the Wehrmacht?

Sometimes, otherwise serious historians, sound so cheap and ideologically indoctrinated.

 

One has to like it! Although not considering myself as a beer drinker nor a connoisseur I do enjoy a proper beer - or two - every now and then. Urquell is generally considered in Finland to be the worlds best beer.

 

We have already been discussing about the real-life vodka rations, which often were considerably larger than the nominal rations.

That "drunken army" did not win the war on it's own nor alone. Wehrmacht had to fight against several world powers.

 

OK, et's see Beevor's text. He states:

This is an ordinary lie or just disinformation he has re-iterated from his "sources". It is well known that antifreeze is a poison. The orally lethal dose of antifreeze (diethylene glycol) is 224 mL for 50% concentration. Also, a real Russian drinker would never stop after 200 ml - it is simply too low doze. Therefore, there would have been reports of massive lethal intoxications with diethylene glycol.

Also, as a scientist and historian, Beevor should have cited reliable sources.

EDIT: And, BTW, Krajala, you have a conflict of interests when you talk about the Russians: they took Karelia from Finland and you are now a bit too angry. Take it easy buddy. Karelia is just a small chunk of Russia as a whole anyways.

 

In the US, some states require a bittering agent added to antifreeze just because alcoholics occasionally kill themselves drinking the stuff. It sounds reasonable that a Russian soldier might occasionally drink the stuff, being unable to read the German on the container. The average soldier would be smart enough to avoid it, but there's always that one guy...

 

There is also common wisdom that Anti-freeze leaks need to be dispersed as the fluid is often licked up by pets who (for some reason) find it desirable and suffer from its consumption.

It would also be mistaken to judge a Russian soldiers sobriety solely from their "official" ration of vodka. Soldiers are by their nature scroungers of anything that relieve the boredom of slack periods and the stress of combat. As they entered German rear areas and later the Reich, caches of spirits were found and consumed over and above their prescribed rations. This is not to say that Russian troops were more inebriated than their Western or Axis counterparts.

Soldiers from all army's/navy's/air force's have been know for an ability to produce homemade spirits from whatever may be at hand, and in certain parts of rural America this process has been known to reach the level of a art form. Sometimes the end result is far worse than anti-freeze.

 

Belasar, you're a nice guy but all you've just said is a bit unreliable. We are talking about the history and we are all curious to know what really happened during the world war 2. The truth, a scientific truth, not just guesswork and gossip.

I am sorry but I don't have any other choice except to say that your line of reasoning has several serious weaknesses. First, you start with 'common wisdom' and adopt it as a starting point to prove something you already 'knew'. Do you realize that this kind of reasoning is upside-down: from the generalization towards the 'facts' based on your assumptions? Then you trash 'official' quantitative data on the availability of vodka as unreliable. Generalizations are unnecessary if there is possibility for quantitative assessment.

If the official rations were 100 grams per day per nose I don't believe anyone would have given them more. They are Communists for God's sake. They would just take away. Therefore the actual rations were more likely less than 100g. In 1941 there were many much more important questions to solve: survival, for example. In 1942 Russians weren't that good supplied. The only chance to get more vodka was to dig it in the middle of steppe: either ethanol or ethylene glycol. Or anything that contains that irresistible -OH functional group. 1943 and 1944 weren't better regarding the chances to drink anything else than water and that miserable official 100 grams of 4% vodka. Beevor mentions 'industrial alcohol'. Does he realize that such thing doesn't exist in the middle of nowhere in the steppes of south-east Russia, near the border with the Nowherestan?

Now, they enter the Reich in 1945 and they've 'stolen' all the German 'Schnapps'. How the Hell Germans had enough 'Schnapps' to provide the entire Red Army with an extraordinary 1.000 g dose per day – a dose sufficient for the Russian to feel something warm at the bottom of his stomach? The only two answers are: ether (1) the Germans were also alcohol addicts to produce that a large amount or (2) the story of generally drunken Russians is a Cold War invention.

 

Without wishing to wade into this one....I really have no idea about Russian alcohol rations - I'm just now reading Gottlob Herbert Bidermann's memoir 'In Deadly Combat' which describes the lengths German soliders, at least, would go to in order to secure a supply of booze under the most difficult circumstances.

Having been relieved after the collapse of Army Group Centre in 1944, Bidermann's platoon are pulled back 5 kilometres behind the front and promptly pass around the schnapps bottle filled with liquid provided by a Feldwebel who had fashioned a distillery from a captured Russian field kitchen. Modified with copper and rubber tubing taken from wrecked vehicles and 'fed a diet of potatoes and rhubarb gleaned from abandoned villages or captured partisan caches' it produced a vile concoction which certainly got Bidermann and his platoon very drunk indeed......

The ful lstory can be found on pp. 215-216 of the book.

 

Tamino,

Since I am such a nice guy (splendid really, but enough about me.) I will respectfully ask you to read my post a little more closely.

The "common wisdom" to which I referred to concerned household pets and their willingness to ingest anti-freeze when presented the opportunity. I have been warned by my vet, as well as seeing news reports about people who change their own fluids that pets are attracted to it due to its "sweet" taste. I believe that warnings to the same are posted on domestic anti-freeze available for sale. Another poster pointed out that some US states mandate a "bittering agent" be added to discourage any four or two legged consumption by accident or design. True addicts are known to consume any thing that gives them the buzz they are looking for, regardless of the health consequences.

Before the leap is made that I equate Russian soldiers with "true addicts", or more correctly alcoholics, I stated two things. One is that all soldiers through out history has shown a facility for locating and "liberating" alcohol, be it wine, schnapps, whiskey, beer, sake or vodka. I am hard pressed not to read of such acts in any personal memoir from soldiers of any military service. Those not in a position to "liberate" such spoils often have access to some form of home made brew due to their having some stability in their location (airbase/ship/rear position/PoW camp). Finally they also have some ability to barter or buy alcohol over and above any issued ration. This all done contrary (usually) of their officers wishes.

Secondly I also stated that I have no reason to state unequivocally that Russian soldiers would be any more inebriated than American, German, British soldiers. However as Allied soldiers (US, Soviet, British) entered the Reich, stockpiles (official and personnel) were found and "liberated" with all due dispatch and as opportunity presented.

The image of Drunken Soviet Soldiers, raping and pillaging though occupied Germany is 3 parts propaganda myth and one part truth. As with all such things, one real act is easily expanded into a dozen such "absolutely true" acts by those willing to believe anything of a hated and feared enemy.

 

A worthy goal.

That doesn't appear to me to be the case. For one thing several previous posters had mentioned both the official quantity and reasons why it may not have adequately captured the entire quantity consumed. Indeed the official number is simply a quantity issued to the unit (from what's been said). At no point is it officiallly stated that no additional alchohol would be consumed.

You have just stepped beyond the realm of fact yourself with this proclamation. Indeed several of the previous posters have noted why additional alchohol per person would be officially issued and that's without even considering unofficial sources.

This is pure opinion with little to support it other than faulty logic.

??? of course there were other ways, several have been mentioned. There are others.

Perhaps but your data free post hardly substantiates it. Indeed given the numerous other factual errors in this post it is quite questionable.

Where did the 1,000 gram dose come from? In any case your logic is still flawed and your suppositions devoid of fact.

 

I'm terribly sorry Belasar, I think I have misunderstood your post even though I've read it several times. Perhaps because I was more interested in the logic than in what you really wanted to say.

Once again, you're really a nice guy, indeed.

As you know, I am from a midget country and I'm inevitably often abroad. I've seen several drunken in each country I've visited but have never tried to draw some general conclusions like: "a drunken Pole" or "I know why ALL the French have red noses" etc. Also, in my country 99+% are Catholics and everyone has to drink wine by the definition, at least on some certain occasions in the Church. Therefore, we don't see drinking as some kind of sin, quite in contrary.

Finally, regarding drinking, I personally drink just a little bit more than you and a bit less than Krajala. But thisweekend I will afford myself to drink some musts, which is splendid this year. We had good harvest this fall.

 

Actually, a reference earlier said that combat troops were issued 200 grams a day, not 100. 200 grams = 7 shots. Save that a couple of days and you have enough for anyone to get totally hammered even if you didn't have another source of alcohol.

 

If for one reason or another the ration didn't reach the unit was it forwarded to them? I.e. if they were advancing rapidly and out running their supply chain did their rations accumulate until the advance haulted? If so especially if the unit was recieving rations based on their jump off strength I could see a plentiful supply when the advance eventually ground to a hault.

 

And those lucky enough to survive the combat have doubled or tripled their single-shot-dose by collecting "savings" from the dead comrades. To celebrate the Victory.

Kodiak, I must admit, you always have good ideas. :circlejerk:

 

That's indeed a great idea how to use a copper car engine cooler to provide a first-class condenser for improvised distillery. You don't need an extra water tank to cool the condensate because car coolers are usually air cooled.

 

You know, there may be something about how vodka is drunk, also. With most national liquors (scotch, bourbon, brandy) you tend to sip and savor the liquid. It's a slow process to get bombed. Vodka is just thrown down - Russians slam it down like frat boys with tequila, and then bite something salty (herring, pickle, whatever) to mask the taste. They'll tell you that it's bad manners to drink without food, but alternately biting a pickle and slamming down shots isn't exactly a restrained way to drink.