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Refighting the Pacific War - Alternate History and the Battle of Midway

Discussion in 'Alternate History' started by Otto, Feb 16, 2016.

  1. mjölnir

    mjölnir New Member

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    Try to think a little bit before you write, it's annoying to tray to explain everything, as if to a child:
    B-26 or TBF have no problem at all shooting down damn slow, flammable Kates and Vals, while the P-38 and SBD-3 shoot down Zeroes, which have little or no 20 mm ammo left after fighting Wildcats in Midway.
    Even if a Zero with little or no 20 mm ammo happens to go for a B-26, it will encounter serious fire, a resilient target and a P-38 or TBD.3 on its tail, so the Zero is much more likely to lose than to win the fight.

    P-38 had 150 rounds of 20 mm and 2,000 rounds of .50 cal and it takes a few rounds of either to light up a Zero. Zeroes had 120 20 mm rounds (for two guns) and 1,000 7.7 mm roounds (little use against American planes and) and they are fighting Widcats in Midway (which can absorb a lot of rounds), and Zeroes in the CAP are trying to shoot down even tougher B-26, P-3, TBF and SBD.

    Too bad your list of lost planes does not specify the SBD-3 which had to ditch for lack of fuel or because Yorktown was damaged and those lost to friendly fire or accidents. Somehow, you concluded that a small IJN CAP and even fewer planes attacking piecemeal only Yorktown had wiped them out.
     
  2. mjölnir

    mjölnir New Member

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    Takao.
    Strafing was done in Coral Sea by Wildcats to give slow TBD a break from AAA. Strafing with a faster and tougher P-38 is safer than with a Wildcat.

    How the hell did you get the idea that Wildcats had difficulty covering their charges in Midway? OTL bombers from Midway had no escort at all and carrier Wildcat pilots did not cover their charges, because they got lost or arrived late (they were useless and many had to ditch). The SBD-3 also got lost, but arrived barely with enough fuel and simply thanks to a commnader's hunch (hardly good planning or execution).

    ATL It is easy for experienced Wildcat pilots from Midway (without charges) to shoot down attacking planes and it is much easier for P-38 pilots to cover faster B-26 and TBF than TBD.
     
  3. Takao

    Takao Ace

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    Yes, I have been giving you this advice on this thread and others, but like a petulant little child, you have refused my advice.

    I also laugh out loud at you trying to explain everything to me...You have done and do no research. Most of your "facts" are flat out wrong. Your assumptions have no basis in reality. And much of what you post are nothing but figments of your own imagination.


    The SBDs were useful, to an extent, against the Kates, but suffered heavy losses against the Zeroes when the SBDs were used as an ad-hoc CAP. This is why the US Navy discontinued the practice: They bolstered the number of fighters and dropped the number of SBDs carried aboard American carriers.

    Further, you have every American plane under the sun strafing the Japanese ships and slaughtering the Japanese CAP. Obviously, you are using the infinite ammo and infinite fuel cheat codes for the Americans.

    As the Smothers Brothers used to say..."El Toro Crap-o!"


    You seem to think that these inexperienced green P-38 pilots are going to accomplish far more than the much more experienced F4F fighter pilots ever did at Midway.

    Why is that? Such a simple question that you never answer...


    The American "Super" planes can absorb a lot of 7.7mm rounds, no one is doubting that. However, all of those American aircraft are far more vulnerable to the larger 20mm round.

    You still fail to grasp the 100% losses of the B-26s and TBFs at Midway.



    Hey, here is a switch...Try doing some research.

    HINT: All you want to know is in the squadron AARs. Feel free to look them up, they are available from several sources.
    ANOTHER HINT: Strat here: https://www.google.com/

    Let me know if you fail to find them...
     
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  4. Takao

    Takao Ace

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    What is your source? Between the AARs, of which do not mention F4F strafing attacks against carriers, and Lundstrom's "First Team" book, the only mention of F4F strafing attacks is during the May 4 strikes against Tulagi.


    Where the hell did you get your information about Midway?

    The Enterprise and Hornet each launched 10 fighters to escort their strikes, and the Yorktown launched 6. We know history is not your strong suit, but I guess math isn't either. So, let me do the math for you...10+10+6=26 F4F escorts...Not 0.

    The only fighters that "got lost" were Hornet's VF-8, and that was on the return to Hornet...Where they had problems with their homing beacon and thought the Hornet task force was Japanese, and so turned wide to avoid it. Thus flying off into empty ocean.
    The Enterprise VF-6 flew the course assigned to them, until they came upon Waldron's VT-8 and thinking they were Enterprise TBDs, escorted Waldron to the Japanese fleet. The Enterprise passed along a new course to the SBDs, but failed to pass it along to VF-6. The Yorktown's VF-3 performed flawlessly, escorting their charges right to the Japanese fleet, and then engaged the Japanese CAP.

    Hardly good planning and execution? It was good planning and execution...had the reported position of the Japanese carriers been correct, but they were somewhat more distant than first reported.

    Again, a modicum of research into this matter will take you a long way. Unfortunately, you have yet to perform any research, and instead, prefer to rely on your imagination and outlandish fantasies.
     
  5. Takao

    Takao Ace

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    Missed this...
    It wasn't that easy for the Marine F4Fs at Midway.

    It is going to be much easier for green inexperienced P-38 pilots to cover green inexperienced B-26s and green inexperienced TBFs.

    Shirley, you must be joking.

    Yes, I just called you Shirley.
     
  6. mjölnir

    mjölnir New Member

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    What part of OTL the 7 bloody Wildcats in Midway were not flown by experienced Yorktown pilots and ATL there are a lot more Wilcats, flown by experienced Yorktown pilots do you not understand?

    Yes, obviously, it is easier for a large number of P-38, B-26 and SBD-3 and 4 TBF to deal with a small CAP, than for unescorted, slow SB2U, a few SBD-2 and 4 each B-26 and TBF to deal with the same CAP and for unescorted carrier TBD and SBD-3 to deal with the CAP.

    I did not say that the carriers did not launch Wildcats, I said that they got lost and some had to ditch when they ran out of fuel. The TBD arrived alone and were massacred by AAA and Zeroes. The SBD arrived alone but the Zeroes were too low after attacking the TBD, so the unescorted SBD only faced AAA.
     
  7. lwd

    lwd Ace

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    How many POD's does your ATL have? (A good what if only has one or possibly 20.) Just what level of presence is required to even come up with your ATL?

    You do realize that the US never really knew that the IJN was going to attack Midway don't you? To implement your plans the US command would need to be convinced of it how far in advance of the actual event?
     
  8. lwd

    lwd Ace

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    Interesting that your insults are much more applicable to you than to other posters on this board. Are you aware that the IJN used separate planes for CAP and escort? The Zeroes over the fleet wouldn't have been fighting with Wildcats over Midway.
     
  9. mjölnir

    mjölnir New Member

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    I don't remember writing any insults, just reading a lot of them.
    Again, please pay attention. I never said they would. The Wildcats in MIdway are fighting the 36 Zeros attacking Midway. The P-38 are attacking the CAP and on the way back the P-38 attack the surviving Zeroes returning from Mdiway, while the returning US bombers concentrate on the surviving Kates and Vals (2/3 of the planes attacking Midway).
    However, after the Wildcats refuel and rearm in Midway, they can certainly catch up with the IJN bombers under attack and help to finish them off. OTL no fighters took off from Midway after the attack, to chase the bombers, only 2 being serviceable after the IJN Turkey shoot.

    Likewise, after the attacking US wave returns and rearms, it can attack the surviving Kidobutai with twin engine planes at a much longer range than single engine planes (if they retreat after losing some carriers and most of the wave which attacked Midway and the morning CAP) before dusk.
     
  10. mjölnir

    mjölnir New Member

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    Rochefort told Nimitz the strength, time, location and direction of the attack, and he had proven quite reliable with much less information and certainty in the coral Sea. Nimitz was so certan of the attack that he rushed enormously Yorktown's repairs and deployed a lot of the wrong planes and pilots, inluding USAAF B-17 [which required a lot of space for no bomb hits at all or even help detecting the Kidobutai the day before the attack, whose direction was known), fuel and munitions] and 4 B-26 (but no P-38 or P-40).

    It is not very wise to use acronyms like POD, which have dozens of meanings.
     
  11. Takao

    Takao Ace

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    When talking alternative history...It is unwise to use the acronym POD? Now I have heard everything...

    You really did just fall of the turnip truck.

    Would you prefer we use the acronym DP. Or are you equally clueless as to it's meaning, in regards to alternative history.
     
  12. Takao

    Takao Ace

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    But...When did Rochefort give these items to Nimitz? Strength? Location? Direction? And, most critically, date?


    The "wrong" planes were sent because that was what they had on hand at the time.

    The B-17s were sent because they were there...

    The four B-26s were sent because they were there...Two were hold-overs from when the 22nd Bomb Group had deployed to Australia back in early 1942. The other two B-26s were from the 69th Bombardment Squadron - which was deploying to the South Pacific. They were the first of 26 B-26s that would arrive in Oahu between May 22nd - June 10th, 1942 for redeployment to the South Pacific. More likely would have been used at Midway, but the majority of the aircraft did not arrive until June 5th, after Kid Butai had already been smashed.

    The P-40s were not sent because there was still a lot of wrangling over the target, Midway or Pearl. Nor could a Japanese feint at Midway and an attack on Pearl be entirely discounted. Further, the P-40s would be defensive fighters, given their shorter range than either the F4F or F2A.

    The P-38s were not sent...Because. They. Were. Not. There.
     
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  13. green slime

    green slime Member

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    Ah!

    But what about the P-38's ? The P-38s that were there, nearly won the war single-handledly, but for the imbellic meddling of those kids.
     
  14. lwd

    lwd Ace

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    You don't consider calling someone "childish" an insult?

    Now you have planes returning from a strike intercepting other planes returning from a strike? PLS come back after you have read some more about the air war in the Pacific.

    You really think they can refuel, take off, and catch up to the bombers after the attack?????

    We already have someone on this board who excels at demonstrating his lack of understanding you have IMO clearly surpassed him. It's not a distinction I would desire.
     
  15. lwd

    lwd Ace

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    Some of indeed most of the issues with this have already been addressed but PLS note. Rochefort told Nimitz what he thought would happen. He didn't "know" it would happen he suspected it, indeed he thought it highly likely.

    You keep talking about "the wrong planes" but lets look at this a bit more, in particular the B-17. PSL note that up to that point in time it was thought by most that B-17s would make good antiship platforms and their range meant that they were very useful scouts. Furthermore if you have read any of the more recent books on Midway such as Shattered Sword you will find that they were indeed useful. Perhaps not how and as much as was hoped but the alternative was not the ones you propose it was B-17s or not. Nothing else except what was already sent was really available to send unless you back up quite a ways but that takes a bit of presence doesn't it.

    POD may have dozens of means but so does ATL which you have used freely without defining it. Furthermore as others have suggested it is a well accepted term in regards to what ifs and as I used it the meaning should be quite clear however for those unacquainted with the term POD = Point Of Departure. I.e. where the alternative time line separates or departs from the historical time line. In a reasonable what if there is one POD and all else follows logically from that.
     
  16. mjölnir

    mjölnir New Member

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    B-17 had proven completely ineffective in antishipping, high altitude, level bombing in the PI, Coral Sea, New Guinea, etc, before Midway. Out of multiple attacks, not a singgle ship had been hit or sunk. In contrast, twin engine bombers (Hudson, etc,), had hit several ships in Malaya, DEI, etc, in low level attacks. Moreover, in Coral Sea, TBD and SBD had sunk Shoho and heavily damaged Suikaku and before that, several ships had been hit by these planes in the Marshall's, etc, so they were known to be effective and tough. The SBD had even proven capable of defending itself against the Zero and shooting down Vals and Kates.
    The SB2U were definitely known to be more vulnerable and much less likely to cause major damage with weak 500 lb bombs, compared to the 1,000 lb bombs, better armor and higher speed after dropping its bomb of the SBD.
    The Buffalo were also known to be unreliable (very poor manufacturing standards and problematic electric, variable pitch system in the propeller), vulnerable, outdated plane with very low rate of climb and maneuverability after rapidly losing large numbers in Malaya-Singapore-DEI.
    By Midway the USN was quite familiar with the Zero and it knew that everything Chenault had said about it was true and that it completely outclased the Buffalo and that the P-40, P-39, Wildcat or P-38 stood a much better chance against the Zero in fast dive passes and could take a lot more hits.
    Nimitz definitely knew that the pilots with experience from the Marshalls, Rabaul and Coral Sea had a much greater chance of success attacking seasoned IJN aviators and AAA than green Marines and Hornet aviators.
     
  17. Takao

    Takao Ace

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    You do realize that this completely subverts all your arguments on page 2, that the TBD was a "lousy", "outdated", "ill-suited", "vulnerable", "sitting duck".
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CP6v4T3VT7I


    Let's see...The SB2U could carry a 1,000 pound bomb...and the SBD-3 was an entire vast 7mph faster.


    What is your source on the "problematic electric, variable pitch system in the propeller"? I have heard of complaints about the Brewster Buffalo, but this is news to me.

    The F2A-3 was not outdated, but over-encumbered. The USN wanted to much on the airframe and added weight after weight, with little increase in horsepower to compensate. By all accounts, the F2A-1 was a dream to fly and would have beaten the A6M2 every day of the week, and twice on Sunday...Ask the Finns.


    Ummm...No, no the USN was not. Most laughed at Chennault's report, and it was filed away to collect dust, only a few took his report to heart - and one of those pilots had the last name of Thach. In fact, the USN had not really met the A6M in combat prior to Coral Sea.

    Any aircraft conducting a fast diving pass on another usually has the advantage...Even a Brewster Buffalo in a fast diving pass has the advantage over a Zero. Or are you presuming that a Brewster Buffalo cannot dive?

    Which is why the carrier aviators were on the carriers, and the Midway pilots were on Midway.
     
  18. mjölnir

    mjölnir New Member

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    It doesn't subvert anything. I stated that even the poor TBD had performed much better than the B-17 antishipping before Midway (so the B.17 were completely out of place in Midway). Even the TBD would have also performed much better in Midway if it had had escort and coordination with SBD. However, only an idiot would use vulnerable TBD and risk carriers, when there is an island and faster, tougher, longer ranged and better armed B-26 to drop torpedoes.

    The SB2U cannot carry a 1,000 lb bomb hundreds of miles and at a decent climb rate and speed, whch is why it only used 500 lb bombs (or why the hell do you think that they did only use 500 lb bombs? completely useless against a battleships and little use against a carrier) and the SBD-2 from Midway carried 1,000 lb bombs. Too bad that you cannot understand that with the same bomb load the SBD is faster and better armed, so after dropping its bomb it is faster and better armed and can survive, especially when flown by Swede Vejtasa, instead of by a green Marine who had never dive bombed or been in combat, much less faced heavy AAA or several Zeroes.

    A few carrier aviators were also in Midway (TBF, etc) and carrier aviators were deployed in Guadalcanal and did extremely well. Only an idiot risks carriers, when it is not necessary at all (knowing when, how strong, from what direction and where the enemy is attacking an island, in which one can deploy excellent AAA, twin engine and carrier planes.

    Regarding the AAA, Ford's documentary of the raid on Midway shows exposed, single barrel, .30 cal MGs firing at the planes, quite inadequate for AAA in Midway, where scores of twin barrrel.50 cal guns could have been deployed in pill boxes (the B-17 had better MGs than the Marines defending an island), Many Marines are also shown with bolt action rifles, when BAR, Garands, Tommy guns and mortars were much more adequate against an invasion. Most importantly, not a single BB, cruiser or destroyer is between the Kidobutai and Midway to attract some IJN planes with bombs intended for ground attack, against additional, strong AAA and armor plate, so that fewer planes attack Midway. Likewise, no USN BBs, etc, are between USN and IJN carriers, to attract IJN planes away from the carriers.
     
  19. RichTO90

    RichTO90 Well-Known Member

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    You really have trouble absorbing and comprehending simple facts, don't you?

    As of 1 June 1942, there were exactly twenty-four (24) B-26 Medium Bombers in all theaters of war facing Japan. There were fourteen (14) in the Pacific Ocean Areas. There were ten (10) more in Alaska. That is an on-hand figure. Operational strength is some number smaller than that.

    Getting your information from Wiki again? Or perhaps the Mythtry Channel? It's a great story, but unfortunately it grew in the telling, like many good war stories. Lundstrom (The First Team, p. 250) "...Scouting Five claimed four Zeroes shot down, one to Lieut. (JG) Stanley W. Vejtasa, (later a renowned ace with Flatley's Fighting Ten). The Japanese, however, lost no fighters in this combat."

    So Rochefort told Nimitz "when, how strong, and from what direction and where the enemy is attacking"? When? Please clue us all in. Meanwhile, unless you wish to look even more foolish, you may want to find a copy of Carlson's Joe Rochefort's War. And ask yourself "if they knew all that then why was the American strike delayed until they found the Japanese"?

    History via a wartime, censored, documentary? Added to Wiki and the Mythtry Channel? Par for the course I guess?

    The Marines had three batteries of 3" AA, one battery of 37mm AA, and one battery of twin 20mm AA guns, along with a battery of 24 .50 caliber AA MG and a battery of 24 .30 caliber MG. Meanwhile, what "twin barrrel [sic] .50 cal guns" are you refering to that "could have been deployed in pill boxes"? The ones that were being produced to mount on B-17? So you want to strip the aircraft of their armament to mount them on pillboxes? Oh, and when in the three week period of reaction were all these pillboxes going to be built? Marines used the M1903 as their standard infantry arm - as did many Army units (as well as some M1917) well into 1942. The 1st MARDIV landed at Guadalcanal with M1903 as standard...the M1 was an Army weapon. The Marines also had the BAR, but I doubt anyone fired one just for Ford to film. The two Marine Raider companies and the provisional companies formed by the Defense Battalions had plenty of mortars, BAR's, Tommy guns, and the like. Just because you didn't see them in a movies doesn't mean they weren't there.

    I won't even address the sacrificial lamb ploy you propose, but it is evident you spend way too much time playing wargames and not enough time reading and/or thinking about real life.
     
  20. Takao

    Takao Ace

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    Yes, yes it does...

    You very clearly state "Moreover, in Coral Sea, TBD and SBD had sunk Shoho and heavily damaged Suikaku and before that, several ships had been hit by these planes in the Marshall's, etc, so they were known to be effective and tough." A a "lousy", "outdated", "ill-suited", "vulnerable", "sitting duck" is not effective and tough. You are contradicting yourself trying to make your "points."


    An entire, vast 4 B-26s with green crews who had little to no training dropping torpedoes.


    The SB2U-3 had a combat radius of 560 miles with a 1,000 pound bomb.


    Research. Research. Research. Too bad for you, you did not take my advice and read the Midway AARs. If you had taken my advice, and done your homework...You would not be making a complete fool of yourself to everyone reading this thread.

    The Midway-based SBD-2s carried 500 pound bombs...Not the 1,000 pounders as you are claiming.


    The Japanese beached their carrier aviators a minimum of three times during the Solomons Campaign...And they got chewed up each time. The Americans deployed their carrier pilots due to extenuating conditions, not because islands are better than carriers.

    Despite knowing when, how strong, from what direction, and where the enemy is attacking...Midway still got hit and it's planes chewed up.

    Ah...Now I see your disconnect!

    All of your knowledge of the Midway battle is taken from one wartime propaganda film.

    Now, I see why all you do is state incorrect facts and make utterly foolish statements.
     

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