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Refighting the Pacific War - Alternate History and the Battle of Midway

Discussion in 'Alternate History' started by Otto, Feb 16, 2016.

  1. lwd

    lwd Ace

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    If you have all the data we have to day that may be true. However that's not what was available at the time especially to those at PH was it? Indeed for some time after Midway B-17s were given credit for sinking some of the IJN carriers.
     
  2. mjölnir

    mjölnir New Member

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    Takao,
    Is your memory span so limited that you forgot that I specified deploying the B-26 and P-38 stupidly wasted in Alaska, for what is knwon to be a diversion by a smaller force?
    It makes a lot more sense to deploy those good planes against carriers than unescorted TBD from the carriers or 4 B.26 and 4 TBF from Midway without escort.

    Your statement regarding the fact that the SBD-3 can carry a 1,000 lb bomb for 560 miles proves that it is idiotic to use SB2U, which cannot do that, rather than contradict me.

    Using SBD-2 with 500 lb bombs is also idiotic. However, with that load, they are not slower than the SB2U. They are slower only when they have a 1,000 lb bomb.
     
  3. Takao

    Takao Ace

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    I didn't forget...All you B-26s arrived too late to see the major action, and it is impossible to get the P-38s there in time.

    Not to mention that I am beginning to question if these P-38Es even had the ability and plumbing necessary to carry drop tanks. The sources vary at this point.


    It makes no sense at all to worry about planes that cannot get to Midway in time to see combat.


    Ahh...Proving yourself to be the fool's fool yet again.

    Epic fail on your part!

    So, yes, it does contradict you.

    I guess research, and now reading comprehension are not your strong suits.


    I've long agor presumed that you are the only idiot here, and that when you claim someone or something else is "idiotic", then it is probably you that is in error, and not them.

    Also, proof please that the SBD-3 was faster...Given all your very wrong statements and claims, I would like to see proof that you are correct in this.
     
  4. mjölnir

    mjölnir New Member

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    Takao,
    Your source is clearly wrong, It is easy to quote absurd statistics.
    It is simply impossible to make an aluminum plane with only 825 hp, which according to you can carry a 1,000 lb and enough fuel for 560 miles attack radius. And you absurdly even claim it to be faster than the SBD-2 (which was lighter than the SBD-3, because it had less armor, fuel, etc).
    The USN spent a fortune to make the SBD-2 and 3 with a 1,200 hp engine (45% more power), a better airfoil, etc, in order to get good range, speed, rate of climb, etc,
    Yet you claim that the old SB2U outperformed the SBD-2 and 3 (which is slightly heavier)-
    When you look up numbers, try to see if they make sense.
     
  5. steverodgers801

    steverodgers801 Member

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    Mjolne\ir, if you looked up the P38E you would read that it was not available at the time of Midway because of design issues. it was not until 1943 that the issues were fixed.
     
  6. knightdepaix

    knightdepaix Member

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    When is the starting point of the Pacific War for this what-if scenario ? Is a what-if attack to the Soviet Union considered a part of this what-if Pacific War ?
     
  7. Takao

    Takao Ace

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    mjölnir, you are absolutely pathetic.

    When you mistakenly thought that my quote supported your fantasy, you fell all over yourself crowing about. Then came you "Oh, Shiite" moment when you realized your epic fail. Now...Suddenly...it is an absurd statistic.

    Just pathetic...


    You will want to send an e-mail to vought.org then and tell them how wrong they are.



    http://www.vought.org/products/html/sb2u-3.html


    The dry weight of the SBD-2 is just over 650 pounds heavier than the dry weight of the SB2U, and the dry weight of the SBD-3 is slightly over 700 pounds heavier. The loaded weight of the SBDs is a good 900 pounds heavier than a loaded SB2U-3.

    That is a little more then "slightly" heavier...
     
  8. Takao

    Takao Ace

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    The P-38E, although not considered combat-ready, was available, and several were flown to Alaska just before Midway.
    The problem is that the P-38E was not equipped to carry drop tanks(it did not have the attachment points nor the plumbing required. Drop tanks and the plumbing were not seen on the fighter until the P-38F-1-LO(although, the P-38 reconnaissance model, the F-4, had them slightly earlier). Lockheed did retrofit the P-38Es to carry drop tanks, but I have been unable to find a date for when this began. Some sources say the Alaskan P-38Es were capable of carrying drop tanks, while other sources say that, no, the P-38Es that went to Alaska were not capable of carrying drop tanks.
     
  9. Takao

    Takao Ace

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    ATM, were are focused only on Midway, and it does not seem that the Russians will be joining the Battle of Midway.
     
  10. mjölnir

    mjölnir New Member

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    Although it was available as Takao pointed out (ATL those planes from Alaska are deployed in Midway), it doesn't take the E to defeat the A6M in June 42, even the Wildcat, Hurricane, SBD and P-40 shot down several, all of them much slower and more vulnerable the the P-38 at the time.
     
  11. mjölnir

    mjölnir New Member

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    Returning to the USSR.
    At the W border Stalin has an offensive force, rather than a defensive one. He just had no clue about how ill suited that force was.
    He orders an immediate offensive against Germany from the Lvov salient and against Romania from Bukovina, which would have rapidly run out of steam and been catastrophic against strong defenses with extensive mine fields, artillery grids, well emplaced pillboxes and well timed counter attacks. The 8,000 Soviet tanks would be devastated by well emplaced mines, 37 mm PAK and FLAK and even by 20 mm cannon. The Romanians and Germans capture over 2,000 slighty damaged light tanks and convert them into very useful SP guns and tank destroyers (using captured Soviet guns). 400 T-34 + KV-1 and thousands of trucks are also captured in repairable condition and distributed among Hoth, Guderian, Kleist and Höpner, which use them to great advantage. When Manstein realizes how superior and simple the T.34 is, he rushes production of the KV-1 when Leningrad falls and prioritizes destruction of trains and RR around Kharkov and the capture of the invaluable factory to produce the T.34. Although the Soviets destroy some of the machinery and installations, these are promptly replaced and rebuilt and production begins. The tank factories in Leningrad and Kharkov and the plane engine factories around Moscow prove to be among the most important booty during Barbarossa.
     
  12. RichTO90

    RichTO90 Well-Known Member

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    mjölnir! You may want to look at which thread you intended to post in again. It is not helping your case that you are getting so mixed up on what to post where!
     
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  13. Takao

    Takao Ace

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  14. lwd

    lwd Ace

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    I'm pretty sure a Whirrawah got credit for a Zero as well. That doesn't mean that they were the ideal fighter plane for the Pacific war. You still haven't answered why and when the decision would be made to deploy the P-38s to Midway or even how they could get there.
     
  15. mjölnir

    mjölnir New Member

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    I did mention that Sara could have at least helped Midway (instead of doing nothing at all for the battle) by ferrying the P-38 and B-26. The planes can be launched far E from Midway, without ammo, given their long range. The P-38 are much smaller than the 16 B-25 form the Doolittle raid. Sarah can ferry 8 B-26 & 8 P-38 in each trip, so that 3 trips move the 48 planes.
    All B-26 are modified to carry torpedoes. The first planes practice when they arrive in Midway. The other planes practice while they wait for Sara to pick them up.
    The first batch of planes leaves from Bremerton, the other batches from San Diego (where the P-38 are made).
    Sara leaves Bremerton as soon as repairs are finished and the first planes arrive.
     
  16. Takao

    Takao Ace

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    What is the ground roll of a B-26B-2-MA into a 30-knot wind?
    How close are you planning to get to Midway before you launch?
    How long is the Sara's round trip going to take?...Then multiply that by three.
    Is the Sara escorted or no?
    No ammo? You should also include no guns and no armor...Maybe add a 125 gallon gas tank for insurance(depending on distance).


    Umm...That was already done at the factory...


    As if less than two weeks of practice will make them experts...


    That's pretty asinine don't you think?

    Your P-38Es are sitting in Paine Field, Washington, 20 miles from Bremerton, Washington.

    It is the B-26s that are arriving in Sacramento, California.

    You are clearly clueless about what you are discussing here...It's a shocker, I know.


    Umm...No.

    The Sara get's plenty of time to screw around for awhile.

    The majority of the B-26Bs don't begin to arrive in Sacramento until, on or about, May 21, 1942. The first flight of three to leave for Hawaii takes off on May 22, 1942.

    So...Let's go Pete Rose, you have got a lot of Charlie Hustling to do to get all of your airplanes to Midway before the Japanese attack on June 4th.


    And that is provided that the B-26s can even take off from Saratoga...
     
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  17. mjölnir

    mjölnir New Member

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    If they dared and could deploy 4 B-26 to attack without escort, they should feel quite comfortable deploying 24 and with a good escort.

    The 24 B-26 are deployed the same way the 4 were OTL.

    So Sara is ferrying only the 24 P-38 to Hawaii (whence they fly to Midway) and launching them 1,000 miles away from Hawaii.

    Even the SB2U flew from Hawaii to Midway and P-38 has a longer range.

    Funny that you worry about escort availability, the USN having wasted large numbers of destroyers and cruisers in very long trips to bomb pointlessly Marcus, Japan, the Marshalls, Rabaul, etc, and in Alaska. Sara needs no escort, she is dashing at 24 knots, subs cannot approach her. If the 24 P-38 cannot be accomodated in Sara for a single run, then 2 runs are made. At that speed 1.5 trips (the last return trip is irrelevant) are perfectly feasible.
     
  18. Takao

    Takao Ace

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    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C_Kh7nLplWo

    I see someone is wearing his "DUNCE" Cap...

    You have forgotten that I informed you that the rest of the B-26s did not arrive in Hawaii until June 5th-10th...After the battle had taken place.

    So...Deploying your B-26's the same way as the OTL, results in them being a day late and a dollar short.

    Too bad, so sad...Thanks for playing.


    Maybe...Maybe...But, they will only be escorting the previously mentioned 4 B-26s that had already arrived or were at Pearl.


    You are mistaken...I am not worried one bit about escort availability, only in the fact that it will effect you rate of advance. You see, destroyers don't have enough fuel to make the high speed run. Thus, they will have to take fuel from the Sara and that will slow your rate of advance.


    Perhaps you forgot why the Sara was in Bremerton in the first place...Because she caught a torpedo from a Japanese submarine, and she would catch another torpedo from a Japanese submarine in September, 1942.


    I am guessing you are still not doing your homework...
     
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  19. lwd

    lwd Ace

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    If you actually tried to generate a time line of these events it would be pretty clear why they won't work at least without a huge number of PODs and a considerable amount of presence.
     
  20. mjölnir

    mjölnir New Member

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