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rommel versus patton

Discussion in 'Leaders of World War 2' started by Quillin, Mar 22, 2006.

  1. McRis

    McRis New Member

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    But still, daytime movement would be far more efficient if the divisions and supply convoys were not obstructed by the allied airforces. For, example Lehr needed about a month to reach Normandy by moving at night and its losses,by the time it reached Normandy, were very high for a division that was not engaged in battle.
     
  2. Roel

    Roel New Member

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    True enough, but part of Rommel's failure in Normandy was due to the fact that he thought it was impossible to move armoured divisions without air superiority, whereas the redeployment of (for example) 2nd Panzer Division proved this theory wrong. On his fixed but flawed idea, Rommel based his entire defensive strategy of holding the armoured divisions close to the coast, where they lay under direct fire of Allied naval batteries and from where they had no operational options.
     
  3. McRis

    McRis New Member

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    Basically, since the Allies had established a foothold in Normandy successfully,during the first day, the outcome of the whole battle became certain. I believe the only chance the Germans had to win the battle was to attack directly at night the paratroopers that occupied the bridges of Orn. Hitler's orders were not permitting and no one was willing to disobey. Moreover, Rommel was not such brilliant defender and his attack could end like the counteroffensive at Salerno...
     
  4. ilija

    ilija New Member

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    How can someone compare Rommel with Patton is beyond my understanding,the first one was brilliant general and the second one was cowboy.
    When I see that people here blame Rommel for the defeat at El Alamein ,I ask my self do you know what he was facing there and what he had in his disposal,not to mention that he was not there in the first place when battle started and that he was summoned there after became obvious that german command there was in disarray.What general can make good stand when he doesn't have fuel to move around his tanks not to mention the superiority in numbers of tanks,people and planes that his opponent had.Only mistake that this men made and that eventually lead to his defeat in northern africa was that he chose Egypt over Malta but that is totaly difrent story.And about Normandy i can say only one thing,if alied lost with what they had than that one would have been one of the seven wonders in the world.
     
  5. Revere

    Revere New Member

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    If they had the same equipment and numbers. Also its how the men fight not the Generals. I might give it to Rommel though. But it would be close.
     
  6. canambridge

    canambridge Member

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    I don't think Rommel was a cowboy.
     
  7. ilija

    ilija New Member

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    And when did i said that he was a cowboy,i said that he was brilliant general,the other one is the cowboy.
     
  8. Ricky

    Ricky Well-Known Member

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    Hey ilija, welcome to the forum! :D

    Could you provide a reason why you think Rommel was brilliant but Patton a cowboy?
     
  9. ilija

    ilija New Member

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    Well when you see what Rommel achived and with what then you get one good reason why he was brilliant,about Patton ,well i never liked this men maybe in way that is a reason why I don,t see what other people see in in him,but come on people what was so special that this men did that you can compare him with Rommel.To me this one is like when you compare Ferrari with Corvete :D .
     
  10. Simonr1978

    Simonr1978 New Member

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    But what reasons do you actually have for saying this? What is it about Rommel that makes you consider him so brilliant? What is it about Patton that makes you think the opposite?
     
  11. ilija

    ilija New Member

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    Maybe one "reason" is the one that how he run over North Africa and with what he did.

    Ordinary person,he had the luck to fight against army that was shadow of the one that started the war and he had equipment that allowed to him to do what he did.
     
  12. Ossian phpbb3

    Ossian phpbb3 New Member

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    Rommel did NOT carry a pair of pearl handled pistols?
     
  13. Simonr1978

    Simonr1978 New Member

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    I don't think the Germans in summer 1944 were exactly a shadow of the 1940 army, they were strained and starting to show it but the desperate drafts of younger and younger boys hadn't started by that point IIRC. They were still a highly capable force and one to be reckoned with, as the British for example found to their cost during Market Garden.

    I'm certainly no expert on either, but from what I can gather on Rommel he was a capable enough General in attack, whilst being fairly weak in defence. Not necessarily a good alrounder, but his coerced suicide in 1944 seems to have placed him in a position where many regard him as beyond reproach.
     
  14. ilija

    ilija New Member

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    The army that "he was facing"was less than a shadow,the best ones were the ones that were in front of the British and Canadian forces.

    Like i said before the British had the luck to fight against the best troopss on the western front,first around Caen then in Market Garden.
    Well lucky for us that Patton was not in the positions simular to those of Rommel.
     
  15. canambridge

    canambridge Member

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    What about the German forces that Patton faced in Tunisa and Sicily? Patton's actions in restoring confidence to II Corps following the Kasserine debacle was a real feat of genrealship. His handling of 7th Army on Sicily was good, not his problem that Monty and Alex didn't trust US forces. Note in particular the employment of US 2nd Armored division in contrast to the use of the US 1st Armored division at Kasserine.
    In Normandy it was the same German army in front of the US as in front of the British/Canadians. By the time Patton took command the Germans had already shifted forces away from the Caen sector and the breakout was in full swing.
    Patton's performance on defense was limited, but in the few opportunities he had (Sicily beachhead, Lorraine, the Ardennes) he did well.
    Rommel and Patton (and Monty) cultivated styles intended to give their men confidence and to motivate them. Patton knew the nature of his troops well enough to be able to do that very well.
    Maybe you should consider the opinion of the Germans who fought him, he was widely considered the best general in the west by them, which is one reason why the Germans were so totally fooled by the Fortitude deceptions. They couldn't believe the western allies would leave their best general on the sidelines.
     
  16. Grieg

    Grieg New Member

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    Neither did Patton. Pearl handled revolvers were a whore's weapon according to Patton. He carries ivory handled revolvers :D
    Truthfully though Pattons persona was a carefully crafted (and usually effective) act. He was an intellectual and his private persona was not much like his public persona. He did have a flair for publicity and self promotion which is a trait that he shared with Rommel who was often accused of performing for the newsreel cameras.
     
  17. Roel

    Roel New Member

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    The best German troops? In Market-Garden? Like which, the 107th Panzer Brigade with its whopping ten weeks of training? The 245th Volksgrenadier Division?

    The Germans that managed to halt and destroy Operation Market-Garden were generally depleted, exhausted, undersupplied, underequipped and unfit for battle. This goes even for the 2nd SS Panzer Corps at Arnhem, which had fewer men than the 1st British Airborne Division when it encountered them, and had almost no tanks.
     
  18. ilija

    ilija New Member

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    Well it seems that they were "The best German troops" at the WESTERN front ,we know who was fighting against BEST GERMAN TROOPS.
     
  19. Roel

    Roel New Member

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    These were certainly not even the best German troops in the West. Like I said, they were almost without exception unfit for duty at all. This was not the case all along the Western Front (if in most places).

    Arguably the best German troops did fight in the West rather than in the East after D-Day; the 1st SS Tank Corps and all the Heer armoured units that were considered above average, such as the Panzer Lehr and the 2nd and 21st Panzer divisions. During the Ardennes Offensive, all the most famous SS Panzer divisions fought in the West as well as the 3rd Fallschirmjäger, the 12th and 26th Volksgrenadiers, and Hitler's two elite "bodyguard" armoured regiments (Führer Begleit Brigade, Führer Grenadier Brigade).
     
  20. ilija

    ilija New Member

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    Well they did manage to give nice leason to Allies didn,t they,so if they are not the best then they are among the best.

    You are mixing the name of the units and the people who fought in them(yes I know about great names that appeared in the west but they were there in big minority).
     

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