Discussion in 'Military History' started by texson66, Aug 8, 2008.
I am a supporter of property rights but hey if you want to be part of Russia get up and move.
They want independence not to be part of some other nation. Even autonomy was not enough so they definitely don´t want to join Russia.
Well man you is not right. Its 90 %. Its official information.
They have Russian Passports because Russia handed them out like free-candy in the early-90's. Anyways, apparently Russia is still full of BS about the whole thing. They signed a 'truce' with Georgia, yet a 100+ vehicle convoy of Russian Troops must be lost, since they're heading deeper into Georgia, looting and shelling, instead of pulling out.
Apparently theres not much we can to do to Russia as far as sanctions etc are concerned.
Well, after your post, me thinks this thread could use some "debalancing" .
Welcome to the real world! That's what all superpowers do! US of A manages even to bland in affairs of countries across the Globe. China is't much better. It's just happend that your neiboring with Russia, or else you would've been wining about USA/China, **** <--- put a country name here.
Russia - bad! Europe and USA - good, Russia - very bad! We got it.
Truth to be told, we are all just people. You can't be bad, just because you were born in China/Russia. People all the same - white, blacks, yellow, they could be called different names, pray different gods but in the end the difference really not that significant.
Please tell me that you're not really that naive!?! Ever played chess?
Every country has some plans and strategy even in a peace time with their nabors. Here we talking about conflict area. Offcouse they had plans. My bet - several. They have people ( like in every other country ) who's job is to plan things like that. Do you think USA does't have plans for invading Iran? Or Israle have no strategy (plans) considering it's "friendly" naibors.
I realy hope i'm not talking to 12 years old.
You should never put a blame for something like that on one side only!
S. Osetia and Georgia was skrimishing each other for long time.
Politicans have their own agenda to it.
Same if you look on news reports from either side - totaly biased!
Why don't they give russians citizenship? People was living there for generations. AFAIK Russia do not accept multiple citizenships --> means they gonna have to return their Russian pasports and become fully fledged citezens of the countries they at now. Problem solved. But you would't agree to that. It would mean russians stop being "second class" citezens and become equal with you. Reciving all the rights and you would't want it.
I'm not getting this neither. Looks like Russia is one of the sides in conflict. Now that both sides stoped hostilities would be a perfect time to sweep Russians with UN or maybe some EU forces for peacekeeping missions in conflict area.
Blah, blah ... i'm skipping some BS here.
Take a look on any last conflicts (Serbia, Iraq, A-stan, ) with Nato forces involved. Much similarities! It's just the way how you get job done. Saying only Russians do that only proves that you view is biased.
We don't see Russians trying to put some "Radar station" or what not in Mexica or Canada. I'm pretty sure on USA reaction on that.
Oh well, then you have nothing to worry about! AFAIK your economy about to collapse on its own so as you neibors. (Estonia & Lithuania)
Is that a citat from Georgian news report? Sounds totaly biased!
As i told above - USA or China would do just the same.
Why should we? You're clearly hatin Russias guts! And whole post looks like poor propaganda article.
I don't think any of the sides right here. Russia is just happend to be much MUCH stronger.
And it's all a part of a big political game between super powers. USA annexed Kosovo from Russias allie Serbia. Now Russia took S. Osetia from USA allie Georgia. Pawns exchange.
Still , me thinks we opend Pandoras Box with Kosovo.
First of all - Russia did't offically reconize neither Abkhazia or S.Osetia!
Nor did they reconize Kosovo! Nice to see that at least someone sticking to their principals!
Second - 90% of population in S. Osetia russian sitezens how can you compair it with Estonia or Latvia???
BTW since we speaking about some of those pribaltic counties - the only time they had their freedom when soviets gave it to them 1917-1939! They were part of Imperial Russia befor that ( just like Finland ) and were onw by Germans, Swedens, Danes befor Russia.
Since we talking about Hitler. We all like to compare Hitler with Stalin. Often disscusin who was worse. Meanwhile most does't even know that Stalin was Georgian!!! And then hearing some Georgian comical-politicans claming they've been occupied by Soviet Union for more then 70 year!!!
Yeah right!! Stalin was Gen. Sec. for 29 years!!! He who split Osetia in two and gave South Osetia to Georgia!!!
I think we can all agree that Stalin pounded Russians almost as much as Hitler did. Maybe thats why he is almosta natinal hero in Gergia nad have monuments all over the place. Have you seen many Hitler monuments in Germany?
I'm closing this one since the TROLLS have come out, and further discussion is going to be rather pointless (as has already been proven.) If discussion of this continues in new threads, BAN's will be handed out.
Cheers musso, I told you that soon or late this would boil....
Moderator Note. Post below from a newly created thread merged with this closed thread.
Do not create another thread on this subject without moderator's approval or it will be removed.
This is the Russian source, where a bit of rather competitive users exchange their views and comments. www.warandpeace.ru/eng. But there is not such complete issues like in Russian variant so I tried to translate some resume of our contents with my far from excellence English.
Some history: the most part of Iran-languaged Ossetian ethnos places in Northern Caucasus (nowdays this is a part of Russian federation). The part of these people who became highlenders, live in mountains in northern part of Georgia. The Ossetian villages settled here for some centuries. Up to the beginning of the 20th century several tens of Ossetians lived these places among Georgian villages. Historically these Ossetians are Christians so they considered to be the allies of Russia in Caucasus. That probably was the reason for nationalist Georgian government in 1920 years which tried for Georgian state independence from Russia, to clean the territory from Ossetians. The problem is that their villages were till now situated in such way that form smth like placdarm for infiltrating, advance movement from Russian Caucasus into Georgia, especially in the side of its capital. So operations of Georgian troops that time are called by Ossetians the first genocide. Thousands including women and children were killed. The most of others run to Northern Caucasus. The statements of Georgians appealed Ossetians to be rubbers and disturbive elements.
But under the Soviet time Ossetians had returned. In 1992, while ruling of Georgian Prezident Zviad Gamsahurdia, their Republican autonomy was declared to be liquidated. The truth is that till even now the Georgian population is the half or the third of South Ossetia. But knowing the totalitarian nationalist positions of Gamsahurdia and his troops Ossetian authorities rejected obeyance. The Georgian legioneers attacked the capital of South Ossetia – Tzhinval – and Ossetian villages. Ossetians were being killed or penetrated. The Georgian troops were supported by the population of Georgian villages. But Ossetians were helped by their people from Russian Caucasus. Georgian militaries were not really professional and trained enough, they couldn’t overcome the Ossetian resistance. Then the Gamsahurdia’s regime was done away and the new Government of Eduard Shevardnadze, having another extensive conflict in Abkhazia and economical destroy agreed to stop violence in South Ossetia and under the terms of treaty Russian peacemaking battalion with a bit of light armors and technique was advanced into the region. It had been situated between South-Ossetian and Georgian parts of peacemaking contingent. Russian military officer was termed like the Commander in Chief under the Georgian and South-Ossetian peacemakers.
In first days Michail Saakashvily come to the rule on the waves of colored revolution he declared in public meeting in Tbilisi the principe of territorial unity of Georgia. Talking their languages he addressed to Abkhazians and Ossetians calling them brothers. But Abkhazia and Ossetia till 1992 cursed the independence, saying that the ways of development of Georgia and its state strategies are not acceptable. So Russia was called by them the wondered patron. But Russian Federation persisting the political regulation of the conflicts hadn’t accept the independence status of those two regions till now. More then that, Abkhazia was blocked for full-levelled supplying from the Russian side till Kosovo was made independent state.
But at a same time the most part of non-Georgain citizens of Abkhazia and South-Ossetia had received the Russian citizenship.
In South-Ossetia Georgian soldiers (peacemakers) kept the Georgian villages, South-Ossetian kept their ones and Tzhinval (it was left by Georgian population in 1992), RF battalion stood between them. After colored revolution in Georgia the criticism against Russia and “separatists” from the Georgian side had being increased farther and farther. Incidents between Georgian police and armed forces and Russian peacemakers and South-Ossetian militaries happened in increasing progression. In spring and summer flyings of Georgian automatical intelligence crafts under Abkhazia and South Ossetia had become regular. Some of them were drawn down.
For several recent years Georgia has become, as Russian official representative in UN Security Council Vitaly Churkin said, “a records man between armors purchasing states”. With money launched by the US State Department with no terms of return Georgian authorities settled the contemporary military infrastructure, accomplished technical modernization and under the ruling of NATO, especially US, instructors had their armed forces been trained. Answering the prosecutions from Georgian Representative for seven Russian ex-militaries served in South-Ossetian army headquarters, Vitaly Churkin announced 127 only US military “counselors” being in rows of Georgian Army.
Georgia take part in NaTO cooperation program and persistently declared its wishing to join the Alliance. And one of the main terms for this: there must be no territorial problems and unregulated conflicts.
So, some days before 8th of August the gun and artfires between Osetian and Georgian troops in South Ossetia region were being strengthening. For three last days, ignoring Russian and South-Ossetia’s protests, Georgians advanced their strengthened by artillery and tanks forces on the tops around Tzhinval.
On the evening of 8th of August, saying South-Ossetians fired on Georgian villages and that Russian peacemakers support them, Georgian armed forces and police special started the military operation. The Georgian peacemaking contingent commander declared his making out of Russian officer ordinance.
The situation was next: Tzhinval was the base of South-Ossetia’s defense and whole state. To south-west and south-east from it there were Ossetian villages. But directly to West and East there are Georgian villages and preceded penetration of Georgian troops onto the tops dominating the valley where Tzhinval is situated was made from the side of those villages. Behind Tzhinval, to the north, Ossetian villages and defense positions surround the road through the 4-kilometers long Rok tunnel – to the Northern Ossetia on Russian Caucasus.
So after great artillery fire and aviabombing 5 thousand Georgian soldiers from motorized infantry, army and police special forces with more than 100 tanks, supporting by 10 aircrafts (bombers and sturm-fighters) of Su modification and nearly 25 helicopters (practically all air forces of Georgia) attacked Ossetians and Russian peacemakers from three sides, especially from south. The whole operation in Georgian headquarters, according to Russian General Nagovicin said, was called “The Clean Field”.
The quantity of Osetian militaries estimated in whole – 5 thousands, half of them – men took arm under the mobilization of last days but rather trained for defense. They had twelve tanks, two helicopters, 15 art-guns and big amount of tank struggling guns. The whole population of South Osetia, except Georgian villages, - 80 000. Russian peacemakers, dispersed around Tzhinval on blockposts – near 500 soldiers and officers with 2-3 helicopters, 5 tanks and two dozens of armed vehicles. As it is understood, after 2-3 houres of artfire and craftbombing Georgian troops at midnight through one hour “cleaned” osetian villages in front of Tzhinval with methods called Russian authorities “ethnical cleaning”. Russian peacemakers were blocked on their positions and were under the bombing and sniper fire of Georgians through night and the first half of the next day. For some night hours Tzhinval was destroyed especially with the fire of Grads – systems of covering fire. Hundreds of citizens were killed – the most part of population hadn’t time to leave the town, Georgians made no previous announcements (like Russian federal forces during the siege of Grozny did). Then Georgians come into Tzhinval but met a real resistance. The northern part of town staid free of them. As Osetian refugees said, Georgian soldiers killed and violated everybody.
A special question – Georgian’s failure to take the northern part of South Osetia and control under the Rok tunnel. Probably they succeed to advance into Tzhinval because a big part of Osetian militaries were on northern positions. More than that – it is like true that some Russian heavy armed technique appeared to be in this part of South Osetia already up to date of Georgians operation. So Georgian special forces were trained by Western instructors we didn’t hear about successful attempts of diversions near the Rok tunnel. The reason can be that Russian Federation “specnaz” was here already. Whatever, Georgians failed and north road started to be used for evacuation civic population and wounded into Russia (up today already 25 thousand civic refugees).
In 4-5 o’clock after midnight 9th of August Russian forces on Northern Caucasus are said to go to Southern Ossetia. The reason – under the terms of 1992 yeared Treaty RF is obliged to stop the aggression from one of the sides of the conflict and to protect the another side. Also the 70% of South Ossetians declared to be Russian Federation citizens. Russian officials called what was happening in Southern Ossetia “the humanitarian catastrophe” and “ethnical cleanings”. The Russian military operation “making Georgia stop the war” has started.
Already on early morning 8th Russian aircrafts bombed the military airbases of Georgia in its north, west and centre – near Tbilisi. Also craft attacks on Georgian positions in South Osetia, especially Grads, have been started. Up to midday first Russian tanks reached Tzhinval and started fighting on its flanks. Successful Russian launches on their artillery support positions reasoned Georgians came from Tzhinval, also fearing to be cut by Russian tanks. Russian specnaz and Ossetian militaries started cleaning Tzhinval from snipers and diversants. Russian peacemakers block posts were disblocked.
The next day Georgians tried to attack and fire Tzhinval from the surrounding tops but failed to success. Then the situation seemed to develop like this: Russian troops pushed Georgians back from valleys though top territories with Georgian villages are still under Georgian troops control. This allowed them to proceed artfire near Tzhinval even after two days after Mr.Saakashvili said that he ordered to stop the fire. But Russian forces, keeping on moving forward (the big part of Georgian fire-points on tops had been liquidated), stopped and turns back the second Georgian wave, generated after declarement of the military state of country. Probably the information about moving of Russian troops in side of Gori was according this hitting this not really structurated attempt of Georgians to form base for another advance into South Ossetia.
At a same time Russian bombers destroyed the dislocation places of four Georgian infantry brigades (from five) and both tanks brigades in different parts of the country. Also they got away two strategic bridges near Gori. On 8th and 9th of August Russian military authorities said about 2 aircrafts drawn down by Georgians (so 4 at whole). A special attention was paid to the fact that one of them was bit by SS-300 provided to Georgia by Ukraine. According to the fact that after Russian air forces ruined in 10th and 11th practically all Georgian radar-stations (+ military infrastructure of Poti seaport and aircraft plant in Tbilisi) no Russian crafts were bitten down in Georgian sky, its anticraft structure was destroyed (and this “helped” to Georgian President to get ready for dialogue). As for Georgians air forces, there was information about three or five their crafts and the same amount of helicopters drawn in South Osetia. Some of them were probably liquidated during Russian air launches against Georgian airbases on 8th of August. So some Georgian bombers are seen in South Osetia sky, we didn’t hear about Georgian aviation in connection with Abkhazia (see below). The only report – two Georgian helicopters burned by Russian crafts in Senaki not far from Abkhazia on 11th.
The ships of Russian Black-sea fleet appeared near the banks of western Georgia and Abkhazia. The declared order – to prevent Georgian aggression against Abkhazia and Russian peacemaker contingent on its border, to protect Russian citizens (residents). The first day the ships started patrolling one of four Georgian missile caters, which had tried to attack them, was flew dawn. At the same time one of several Russians airborne battalions moved into Abkhazia (to strengthen the peacekeeping contingent) crossed the border river and took under the control the Georgian side bank of the river – in order to monitor the situation. Georgian troops went out the zone without fire, after negotiations.
According to the treaty about military cooperation between Abkhazia and South Osetia (concluded two years ago) Abkhazian forces started total mobilization and military operation in Kodori. This valley is like tongue into Abkhazian territory from its back. Till the war between Abkhazians and Georgians (1992-1993) the valley population (from Georgian tribe named Svans) didn’t obey official Tbilisi. But one year ago Georgian authorities had a successful force operation which brought them control under the top of the valley. They placed there their own government of Abkhazia. Truely speaking, all this activity was against the terms of treaty signed by Georgia in 1993 but UN ignored Russian and Abkhazian protests. These days Russian peacekeepers allowed to Abkhazia to bomb Georgian positions in Kodori and then to land there its desant. Georgian troops and police left Kodori with no resistance.
So two days ago Russian President declared the military operation for making Georgia peaceful to be finished. He said that the violence was stopped, the aggressor pushed away from South Osetia and has no capability for new aggression. Because its military infrastructure and armed forces are disorganized.
But at the very beginning Mr. Medvedev declared – all the guilties in aggression against Russian peacekeeping forces and citizens would be punished. According to the task for the Russian General Prosecutor to start investigations about Georgian military crimes, the ideas about issue in International Court and rather though characteristics of Georgian authorities and Mr. Saakashvili personally (favourite is the theme about his comprehension with Saddam those words are under action.
In estimates, 74 Russian military were killed in South Osetia, 18-25 – from peacekeeping battalion. Osetians – near 2 thousand of civic population killed, hundreds of militaries too. Georgians – several tens of civic population, 1-1,5 thousand of militaries killed and wounded and those are the most professional part. The reservists are not trained enough and pour for ammunition. The Georgian battalion from Iraq, which was brought into the country by 8 US transport crafts, settled to protect Tbilisi.
A special words about Russian mass-media pulling the theme of informational war against Russia from the side of USA and part of European media. They said Russia is the aggressor, they didn’t say a word about Georgian’s invasion into South Osetia and started with Russian tanks in Georgia, they showed the view of Georgian Grads firing Tzhinval while saying Russian attacks on Georgian villages etc.
And now a lot of citing the Stratfor – three lessons.
1- Russia could bit army trained by NATO
2- Russia is ready to provide its interests in the region and to help its allies
3- Russia get used the West approach to external affairs and will not forget the Kosovo example.