Russian atrocities

Did you read what I said? If you limit the comparison to Soviet crimes in Germany compared to Nazi crimes in the USSR I would agree that the Nazi crimes were worse. However if you compare the crimes of the Nazis to the crims of the Communists or even just the Soviets that is no longer the case or at least it is far less clear. As for other nations committing crimes on that order I suggest you look at Pol Pot or the Mongols. I suspect one could find others as well without too much difficulty.

Yet again, I competely disagree with you. I am comparing the Nazi crimes and Stalin crimes as a whole. The only thing they have incommon is the number of dead. And if you leave it at that, then they are the same. BUT you can't leave at that. First of all you can not forget the Germans started these crimes. I never seen Soviet human ovens, I never seen Soviet turning humans body parts into stuffings material or lamp shades. I have not seen Soviet scientists injecting humans with all sorts of poisons or pathegeons to the extent of Nazis. The Soviets did take millions of men to labor camps and many died, I did not see Soviets taking childern/infants and shooting them for the "fun' of it. I'm sorry we disagree but I simply can't understand how any one could compare the two sides. Yet again keep in mind I am Polish, who only lost family members to Stalin. Also keep in mind that I agree with many of your points. Just not this one. I'm not giving the Soviets any 'passes", I simply put the German atrocities at the most shocking level in man kind's history. And as aweful as Khmer Rouge and Mongols were, they are not at the deprived level of the Nazis. Khmer Rouge is pretty close. I ask you this question, where would you rather be sent to: Aushwitz or Gulag?

 

I am comparing the Nazi crimes and Stalin crimes as a whole. The only thing they have incommon is the number of dead. And if you leave it at that, then they are the same. BUT you can't leave at that. First of all you can not forget the Germans started these crimes. I never seen Soviet human ovens, I never seen Soviet turning humans body parts into stuffings material or lamp shades. I have not seen Soviet scientists injecting humans with all sorts of poisons or pathegeons to the extent of Nazis. The Soviets did take millions of men to labor camps and many died, I did not see Soviets taking childern/infants and shooting them for the "fun' of it. I'm sorry we disagree but I simply can't understand how any one could compare the two sides. Yet again keep in mind I am Polish, who only lost family members to Stalin. Also keep in mind that I agree with many of your points. Just not this one. I'm not giving the Soviets any 'passes", I simply put the German atrocities at the most shocking level in man kind's history. And as aweful as Khmer Rouge and Mongols were, they are not at the deprived level of the Nazis. Khmer Rouge is pretty close. I ask you this question, where would you rather be sent to: Aushwitz or Gulag?

 

Well first of all let's not be so sloppy with our terminology. I was comparing the crimes of the Nazis to those of the Soviets. One could legitmately compare them to the Communists as a whole but that's hardly necessary. So lets see ...

They most definitely did not. The Soviets were committing atrocities well before the war started and let's not forget they played an important role in the start of said war.

So the Soviets used a different means of disposing of the bodies I don't see that as being all that impressive. The lamp shade and "stuffing material" uses were either rare or perhaps even apocryphal in any case.

So you are arguing committing crimes for scientific or pseudo scientific reasons is worse that for political ones?

No, leaving them to starve was much more humane.

I haven't seen a good case for it yet.

I have yet to see a well reasoned argument to support that position. IF we are just talking about opinions then this like most opinion threads is rather useless.

That would rather depend on who I was and why I was being sent. And ignores the fact that if the Soviets decided to kill someone they didn't bother to send them to a camp. So not a particularly good comparison and rather irrelevant to this thread.

 

This is getting silly. I don't want to take every sentence apart, cause this would go on forever. I simply believe that the German atrocities were the most shocking in man kind's history. I suggest you take a tour of Aushwitz.

 

When I talk about the "threat" of Fascism-Nazism, I am speaking of it as an ideology that was even more alien to democratic ideals than communism. At this point I am not interested so much in debating the issue than explaining my view on the subject, which is better expressed by Mark Maohower (author of Dark Continent: Europe's 20th Century) than myself.

 

wow

 

That's your priveledge. However if you want others to accept this as well then you need to make a good case for it. So far you haven't.

Not really relevant to the topic at hand asside from being a veiled insult.

 

Ok, but why do you think so? Indeed if anything I would think that some of the more dangerous attitudes of the Nazis were too close to those of the democracies of the time. Certainly the history of democracy is linked to that of dictatorial governments. Indeed some of the terms by which we discribe Fasicist have their origins in Greek and Roman democratic institutions. Communism both in its theoretical form and as it evolved was potentially much more malignant and much more stable.

Ok, but I simply don't see it.

Since I don't have that book it doesn't do me much good.

 

Gentlemen, I'm watching this thread, you either keep it gentle or I'll have to close this one too. Pmp40fire:

 

Really gentlemen? Im away for a few and this is what happens?

Thanks Skip.

 

You are welcome Slon, if needed I will send a few to the Gulag, they learn more about Ivan

 

Well... if I may ask humbly, and forgive me for my ignorance, are you some kind of the representative of NKVD here?

 

Da Tovaritch, but don't tell Adolf :evillaugh:

 

Nyet Towarisch Skipper, I'll be silent as usual, .... but guys be careful, this is a serious matter, heads will roll around here if we don't obey our local NKVD representative. Let's be nice, ... for a while!

 

Sorry for the spelling Tamino, my Ruski is a bit rusted.

 

At this point I think several of us are rather frustrated with each other but I didn't think we come very close to stepping over the line yet. Was there something in particular or was this a premetive strike?

 

No Skippers just got a new gun and an itch...

 

my latest Christmas present. :smg:

 

Nothing wrong with a "gentle" reminder every now and then but sometimes I get carried away and am rather oblivious at times so thought I'd check.

*** edit for ***
No idea how at times became to lines. fixed now.....

 

Lwd....You and me both matey. And I'm only reading em.