Russian Navy "On Verge of Collapse"

Yeah, I think we can all agree that all here is opinion...none of us has all the facts.
What I mean by peaks and troughs? Just human civilisation has, like many things, a constant movement to it...it sways depending on which way momentum takes it...I always use sex as an example of this...progressive generations become increasingly promiscuious, then there's a peak and then a fall back towards conservatism....after a period of a generation or two, things start to swing back toward a more open view, and so on...with every generation programmed to re-evaluate everything they've been taught at a certain age (rebellious teens it's called these days)...its ensured that this constant swing, or pendulum remains mobile...politics is another great example of peaks and troughs too...spend spend...save save save...spend spend...

I beleive that war and peace, and in this case, fascism are all examples of this human pendulum...the new worlds we create simply conjur up different flavours on the same themes...

 

And that's all it happens to be "proof" of. Try saying your opinion freely in Putin's lands, and see what happens.

Because Muller is completely impartial when it comes to Putin, ain't he? And what supposedly makes the other guy a "NATO journalist!"?!


"With regard to the crisis in Ukraine in 2014 he moved into position for the policy of the Russian President Putin and justified the annexation of the Crimea ."
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dirk_M%C3%BCller_%28B%C3%B6rsenmakler%29


And here, he's blaming big, bad America for supposedly causing the financial crisis in Europe because the Euro was supposedly a "bigger influence than the Dollar" lol. In other words, he's the German Michael Moore...a conspiracy freak with a chip on his shoulder.
http://hellasfrappe.blogspot.co.uk/2013/05/german-stock-broker-imf-deliberately.html

 

This might very well be like throwing gasoline into the fire...

http://edition.cnn.com/2015/02/02/politics/us-ukraine-lethal-aid/

A U.S. official now tells CNN that military leadership supports defensive lethal aid being part of the discussion, but the administration is still trying to assess what reaction it could elicit from the Russian government, which the U.S. maintains is backing rebels in eastern Ukraine.

 

Got any links? Is this all from Russian and seperatist sources?

Excuse me but how does a video confirm that they are "mercenaries" or tell their nationality for that matter.

Well if that was what was happening you might have a point but the evidence points to the seperatist being responsivle for most of the treaty violations.

Except of course they are moving through comercail airline corridors and not using transponders or talking to air controllers. I.e. they are putting civilian traffic at risk.

 

The government in Kiev is hardly a "junta" nor did it "cause" the civil war. Some of the actions of members of the government certainly upset people and opposition to said actions was reasonable. However it is unlikely that it would have reached the point of open war without massive Russian support and instigation to the rebel factions. It's also worth noteing that were it not for massive ethnic clearing inthe mid 20th century the Crimea would hardly have wanted to be part of Russia and indeed the population that can trace their lennage there back past that time are quite nervous about Russian control and have clearly suffered under it. Now they might have prefered independence to Ukrainian control but from the evidence I've seen they preverred Ukraine to Russia.

In case you weren't aware of it we have some people in the US government that are pretty far to the right as well. We also have some that are well to the left. That doesn't mean that the US government is either. The way you keep using the "N" word I wonder if we should just invoke Godwin and move on.

 

Russia, as the primary successor state to the Soviet Union has such a glorious history in Eastern Europe. There are so many non-Russian ethnic groups in Eastern Europe with such fond memories of oppression. Nothing like kicking people out of their own homes, and sending them to a gulag in Siberia to endear yourself to them.

How peculiar that upon the USSR's collapse, NATO expanded Eastwards! It must be the horrible lying, manipulating evil US empire forcing their populations against their will! Not that any of those former Warsaw countries were ever clamouring to join NATO, while NATO countries were rather reluctant to take on the burden of their defence, oh no.

How odd, that the Ukraine would want closer cooperation with the EU!

 

Well see our "evidence" differs. I have eg. seen reports that Ukrainians fled to Russia. Why would they flee to their enemy ? Sounds logical lol.

That´s only one example were "evidence" differs. "Evidence" I have points to arranged coup de etat in UKR with support of US/EU/Nato (anyway the same). Western UKR has a lot of gas and also there are running many pipelines. US (or western in general) oil industry has interests there. That is nothing new (well known pattern), guess most of you know the CIA "practiced" this more than enough in eg. South Amerca. Also remember both Iraq & Vietnam wars began with lies (WMD´s, Gulf of Tonkin etc.). GOVs have lied so much in the past, and now you think they say the truth suddenly ? How come?

@ The Historian: Mr. Müller IS neutral on the issue, he even said, that he doesn´t like Putin and also acknowledges that Russia of course has interests iN UKR. He looks at both sides, while some (most) others only see one side it seems. I know not everyone might enough German language to understand the videos I post. But I bet if you look with open eyes, you will find stuff in English too that support Müllers (and many others) views. It seems most of you here just seem to use sources from Nato/mainstream media. So don´t wonder that your POV might be wrong (I say MIGHT I don´t say my POV is right, I am also neutral - I look at bothh sides).

Therefore I will point to this thread: (YES, the guys there are NOT neutral they are mostly pro seperatists and anti Nato) however they provide a wealth of links and videos for the issue. The thread is over 150 pages, and stated already in 2009. So it´s not a new issue at all. You can use the traslation feature on your browser, so you can read the non english stuff. They also have 2-3 guys there that know Russian, so provide some translation of Russian stuff. I open up this forum any other day, so always can follow easily the newest develpments without needing to search in the nets long or use mainstream medie (which mostly is terrible anyway). Just a tipp from me, no one needs to follow and I have no connection to the guys there. I just find it highly informative even if guys are not neutral:

http://www.goldseiten-forum.de/index.php?page=Thread&threadID=10034&pageNo=289


I mostly draw links/info/connections if I follow leads, as a historian or detective I think this the normal method. Or not ? Except you are blinded by something. But use my link above and I just concede to you that you MIGHT be right. There is a chance that your POV is right (a small one at that, but I am not Mr. knowitall). Also it seems my English is not good enough, cause some of you guys don´t seem to understand. So it makes of course no sense for me to post further on this issue. Use leads, hints and research yourself. You are grown men right, I am not babysitter

Also a last question, Historian, are you really Scottish, or from the US ? Just curious
Alsohow do you know how it is in Russia ? Do you travel there often ? Or is it your 2nd home? You seem to know so much about it. So if this is the case you have certainly an advantage over me, cause I was never in Russia, and so can´t know how it is there REALLY.

 

Ok here is the issue, Mr. Müller refers too (Nuland)

Vid description: American Conquest by Subversion: Victoria Nuland's Admits Washington Has Spent $5 Billion to "Subvert Ukraine"
"After three visits to Ukraine in five weeks, Victoria Nuland explains that in the past two decades, the United States has spent five Billion dollars ($5,000,000,000) to subvert Ukraine, and assures her listeners that there are prominent businessmen and government officials who support the US project to tear Ukraine away from its historic relationship with Russia and into the US sphere of interest (via "Europe").

Victoria Nuland is the wife of Robert Kagan, leader of the younger generation of "neo-cons". After serving as Hillary Clinton's spokesperson, she is now undersecretary of state for Europe and Eurasia." Diana Johnstone

Hear Victoria Nuland's very concise, almost victorious speech

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U2fYcHLouXY

The "Chevron logo" on the right says it all

 

As a civilian, uninterested in participating in the conflict, and valuing your life, which way would you flee? Through the battle zone, or away from it?

The Ukraine may have "lots of gas", yet it still has to import about 80% of its natural gas needs. Think the EU can meet those needs?

The Russian's too, have been involved in coups and revolutions throughout the post war period, and lied to their citizenry. From Afghanistan to Chernobyl, to mention the most well known. Furthermore, over the past decade, they have demonstrated an increasing hostility towards journalists, such that Reporters without Borders now ranks Russia near the bottom of all nations. How come you select to believe their story?

Perhaps it is not us that are blinded, but you that have been seduced / disillusioned?

 

Maybe I am blind, who knows. So use the wealth of sources right before your eyes from which I provided some. And decide yourself.

Sure the Russians lie where have I said otherwise?? Also once again (IS my english reall ythat bad) I am neutral. Most sources aren´t even Russian I use. It seems you don´t understand or just put things in my mouth (what I don´t like, so refrain from it in the future, thankls)

But the west lies too. Or better their corrupt goverments..many people have waken up here in Europe - so we might be on the right track.

 

I'll put that down as an attempt at humour.

Wasn't aware that I'd ever claimed to be an "expert" on Russia.

 

Just curious cause your views seem to be quite US centric. I always viewed the scots as quite independent people. I mean they fought for their freedom quite a while, didn´t they? However sadly I never visited scotland, so might be wrong.

Second, you said, you cannot say anything in Russia, so you must have better knowledge of the country. Here is your quote post 102 "Try saying your opinion freely in Putin's lands, and see what happens." My memory often isn´t the best too, so ur excused. So what happened to you in Russia (or relatives of yours?).

 

Strange, but I didn't hear her "admit" anything of the kind. I know it seems an obvious thing to say, but just because something is on youtube doesn't make it gospel or mean it hasn't been skillfully edited by persons unknown. All the Twin Towers "evidence" is more than enough proof of that.

So "historic" that the moment the Nazis invaded, the Ukrainians treated them as liberators after their treatment from Stalin. The love affair would appear to be all from the Russian side.

 

You don't have to visit a country to be well-informed about the state of freedom of speech and journalism:

http://en.rsf.org/russia.html


http://rsf.org/index2014/en-index2014.php


Russia ranked 148, of 168 countries

"The press freedom index that Reporters Without Borders publishes every year measures the level of freedom of information in 180 countries. It reflects the degree of freedom that journalists, news organizations and netizens enjoy in each country, and the efforts made by the authorities to respect and ensure respect for this freedom. It is based partly on a questionnaire that is sent to our partner organizations (18 freedom of expression NGOs located in all five continents), to our network of 150 correspondents, and to journalists, researchers, jurists and human rights activists. The 180 countries ranked in this year’s index are those for which Reporters Without Borders received completed questionnaires from various sources. Some countries were not included because of a lack of reliable, confirmed data."

 

1) I'm a Scot who is proud to be British. Unlike the average Scottish Nationalist, I'm not obsessed with perceived grievances from the wars of independence or the Jacobite rebellions.
2)There have been enough reports in western newspapers from Russian dissidents who dared to express their opinion freely in front of Putin's boys to get a good enough picture of life in Russia.

 

"From above link: "Three years is the maximum jail term for the charges on which Reznik was convicted –insulting a state representative and making a false statement. He was also sentenced to a two-year ban on working as journalist following his release. His lawyers said they will appeal."

If you insult someone in the west you can be convicted right ? I eg. know that here, if you insult a policeman you need to pay a fine or even go to jail in worse cases (even mostly pay a fine). Where I live is "west". However maybe you can say what you want to policemen in your country without any consequences.

Come on guys.

Also what has Stalin to do with todays Russia ? Is he still alive ? Maybe Hitler is alive too and all Germans are Nazis still? You are telling fairytales here, right?

I finally give it up, none of you provided good sources.

It seems most of you live in the past, maybe it´s 1950 in your calender. Strange mine shows 2015.

BTW: Here we have at least some journalists who can´t work in the "mainstream" media anymore because their "views" did not suit their bosses or better the organisations behind them....you don´t believe? - 2 names: Eva Hermann, Ulf Ulfkotte.

 

What does "insulting a state representative" mean? And he certainly wouldn't have been banned from working as a journalist for two years in the west for it.

 

Without knowing more it's hard to say. How many of them fled? Why? Some Britons in the run up to WWII "fled" to Germany what does this imply? I have read that the former leader of the Ukraine fled to Russia, but that was clearly to avoid prosecution. So as it stands this tells us essentially nothing.

Except of course that it's not clear at all what this is evidence of so is it really "evidence"?

If you do PLS post it. Just from the above however it's quite questionable. There is a world of difference between the US, the EU, and NATO. If you can't see that then your vision is definitly in question.

Ignoring the rampant unsupported speculation. No they didn't indeed that you say that indicates that you don't have much of an understanding of either the wars you mention. Certainly goverments have lied but in general the ones in the west have told the truth because not doing so has some very negative consequences. Indeed even appearing to do so can have. So it's not at all a case of them suddenly telling the "truth". Russia on the otherhand has resorted to such tactics on a much more frequent basis yet you seem to believe them without any problem.

That doesn't appear to be the case at all.

Funny how you pick the leads you follow though.

The problem is not your English, which actually is quite good. The problem is that you aren't presenting a well supported logical argument. For instance when asked to support your position in many if not most cases where you've responded you have presented essentially anecdotal evidence. Without more details, numbers, statistice, etc to put them in context they are essentially useless. To try and draw conclusions from them requires not logic but leaps of faith. Then when one notices how closely your positoin conformst to Putin's ....

 

It means having/putting yourself in a tight spot, where life and or limb might be perilously threatened as a result of dangerous actions not always of your consent. You seem to speak lightly and even condescending of the plight those Ukrainian troops who became captured.