Russian View of the Air War

I was thinking of sending the guy an e-mail and inviting him to the forums and commenting on the thread but I don't want to get banned.
If you guys think it is OK then I will do it.
KP, you are the boss man for this section, what do you think ?

 

Ta, please don't ...........as I would have to start digging through my resources to crunch the guys pride and I don't have time for that right now........too many night fighter projects in the works

 

Sorry TA,

I must say it´s not worth it. We´ve seen earlier what happens; a lot of quarrel yes but in the end nobody has changed his view a bit and actually everybody is more or less angrier and nobody has learned anything new...I don´t think it´s worth it. Let´s just enjoy the pics of that site!

 

Yes - the thought of another Polish-style punch-up is too much to bear.

It would be good at some stage if a 'sensible' Russian joined up to add an interesting different perspective to the Forums.....

 

Well, you can always count on your resident ersatz

 

Happened to look in the archives a couple days ago and saw last years, "punch up". Wow that was really something. Wouldn't want to see that much time and space used again any time soon.

 

Did someone mention Poles and 'Punch-Ups'????

 

(bullhorn) STEP AWAY FROM THE CAN OF WORMS!

Back away folks nothing to see here.

Keep moving.

Move along.

 

Found this about a PE-2 pilot. I think some artistic writting was used but he has some pretty metals.
http://www.forvalor.com/s43.htm

 

Maybe - but I think he was fortunate indeed to survive so long !

 

Quite the chest full of medals. The exploits detailed in his citations are quite impressive. If I remember an earlier thread or link about how aerial victories were scored wouldn't everyone in his squadron who survived be due pretty much the same honors?

 

Highly respected Martin,

I'm new on this forum so I only discovered this topic now. I want to respond to your posting of 24 August where you state : -my own reading at the moment with regard to the air war shows just how much the US/Luftwaffe battles drained the German resources from the Eastern Front.
Martin, I don't want to be in you way but I find this somewhat naive! The strenght of the Luftwaffe was already drained in Russia in 1941-1942. The Luftwaffe lost more aircraft in the first 6 months of Barbarossa then in the whole BoB!( Source: the unbiased Black Cross -Red Star series )

 

True - but the 8th USAAF didn't even exist in 1941....

My meaning was that, surely, without the huge aerial battles of 1943/44 over NW Europe, the Luftwaffe would have had far greater strength in the East.....?

 

Hello Martin,

Off course you're right, it's absolutely true, I missed you're point, I'm sorry ! I tend to get a little excited when I think the VVS is sold cheap ! I should have thought longer in this case !

 

No - it's Ok, JR - I also checked ( in Vol II of BC/RS ) the heaviest losses suffered by the Luftwaffe in Barabarossa were the Heeresfliegerverbande units flying HS126s - 259 of which were lost.

I'm just thinking of all those Fw190s shot down later ( and many skilled Luftwaffe fighter pilots ) by the 8th Air Force which would have been a real threat to the VVF....

BTW, this is one thing I am finding very interesting at the moment - the VVF being 'sold cheap'. I think that this has been the case with Western historiography for a long time ( ie thinking that 'all Soviet pilots were useless' - otherwise how did Barkhorn and Hartmann shoot down so many? etc.) And I'll admit - I thought the same

But as with so many aspects of military history, the more I read - it's not that simple !

 

ah Martin but useless when ? the Il-2 probably saved the day as being a unique soviet craft. The otheres such as the mig and jak performed well at mid-altitude byut the Soviets seemed to not be able to contend with the Dora when it wa seen on the Ost front nor the Ta although this craft also served at the mid-level.

after interviewing many vets that had flown on Reich defence duties and then the transfer on the Ost front, several stated they had problems finding soviet twin and single engine craft in the air. On the other hand as soon as some took off they were in immediate action giving a good account of themselves. We have covered elsewhere over the years as to the question: did the Soviets have air supremacy in 45. Granted they had the resources to them during that last year but the Ost front sector also lying in Germany is a great and huge area with pilots of both sides not even seeing their enemy. The Me 262 jet unit JG 7 also had problems finding air quarry and if anything they had to go to German ground concentrations and hunt down Il-2's which they did sucessfully as well as hideous ground attack with altered R4M's as nothing was offered to them in Soviet skies

 

Hello Erich,

I don't want to question your authority, just want to learn things about this subject;
- Have you interviewed Russian vets also ?
- The situation of JG 7 is hardly representative for the more regular jagdgruppen
- In the case of airsuperiority, have you considered the opposing numbers, was it like killing a fly with a sledgehammer? By this I mean the Sovjets could afford losses in aircraft and pilots, the Germans not, and as experten kept scoring lots of rookies just melted away.
- Perhaps tactical VVS doctrine didn't need airsuperiority above 10000 feet. Their concept of airsuperiority was location bound and aimed at letting the Pe-2's and Il-2's do their business so undisturbed as possible. That beside, they also worked with Schwerpunkte ( in the air as on the ground).

I certainly don't want to be insulting or strongheaded about this, but these questions came to my mind when reading you posting on the subject

 

what experten as it was a sense of survival, scores did not matter and tallies were not even going through a confirmation process after the fall of 44. sure I agree there were tons of soviet a/c but the skies were vast and that is my primary point. historians world over keep concluding the overall superiority of the Soviets in the air when the Luftwaffe was fighting two fronts with too few a/c and many of them sitting ducks on the tarmac and grass without fuel Interview Soviet pilots......no why would I ?

 

Hello Erich,

I'm sorry Erich but I'm not able to grasp your point here. Is it ..tons of...skies were vast,or the overall....without fuel ? I would appreciate it very much if you could/would help me out of the dark here because I rate your opinion highly.

 

I wrote my last response in a bit of a hurry as I am feeding phone calls all day here in oregon.

My thoughts are both. In 1945 the Luftwaffe was in it's die hard days to conserve any type of fuels imaginable, and this was not just for the experten as witnessed by the surviving Night fighter unit logbooks and claims history. As i tried to point out look how big of an area the Luftwaffe wa suppose to cover with the surviving and reduced Luftwaffe gruppen it possessed. you have the whole eastern front from North toward the south plus Eastern flights of gruppen also conteneded US havy bomber deep penetrations from the 8th AF and 15th AF forces.

yopu bring up a solid point in that the Soviets did not care what or whome they lost in the way of material or men, the object being to crush the Wehrmacht at all cost and focus in on taking out Bewrlin even if flattening the city and by any means. soviet A/C units were ordered to fight alonsided the Soviet ground forces to make sure that the punch was there if needed and it was here whether PE's, Il's or anything the Soviets possessed during the breaking through of the German lines that the Luftwaffe most assuredly would find prey to attack. Because of the vastness of space, Luftwaffe bomber units would try to attack unprotected and Soviet fighters could easily manage Ju 88A's with out any Bf 109or Fw 190 interference. On the other hand when an aerial single engine engagement did occur, no quarter was given and several almost unknown German pilots ran up some fairly large scores.

from 14./JG 3, Leutnant Hebert Bareuther 11 kills
Obfw. Walter Kutz 13 kills
Uffz. H. Raab 5 kills
Fw. Willi Maximowitz before his death, a further 5 kills
Fw. Harry Wald already a heavy bomber ace, 7 Soviet kills.